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The dispassionate developer

blog.ploeh.dk

201–210 of 262 posts

Re: The dispassionate developer

#201
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hiring a few engineers right now. I agree that some companies exploit "passion", and that companies doing that tend to over-weight weight things in a way that encourages having no life. I think that's a mistake. That said, I do think some sort of "passion" is really useful. I've been coding a long time. I'm on something like my fifth major language. My first computer had 4K of RAM; now my phone has a million time…

I find passion and fascination leading to a drive to learn better, faster or quicker, depending on the personality. But I harvesting passion in commercial settings is quite disingenuous. Some people don't have that passion and do quite well, they are in fact very rational and calculated and that is a good thing in some ways as well as those who are more passionate about more abstract things, there is room for quite a…

I think perhaps words are getting in the way. I don't think passion and reason are contradictory. I think they're complimentary. Competitive chess might be a good example. And plenty of people here are both passionate about various technical topics, but still are very rational about them.

I agree that people shouldn't fake qualities. But neither do I think everybody will be equally good at every job. E.g., I can do sales, but I just don't like it. I'll just never be as good at it as somebody who really enjoys the work.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#202
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the hiring side, it’s rare to see someone come through with significant OSS contributions. A small bug fix here or there is about the most I see from 90% of resumes. Every once in a while we see someone with a lot of open source contributions, or even full leadership of a popular project. These people would really prefer if we believed that OSS contributions and GitHub profiles replaced resumes or CVs, because it’…

Taking that a step further, we often actively discourage looking at OSS contributions during resume review for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. When we have done either of the above, the singles who work part time have a bunch of time to perfect their work suddenly have a lot to show over the single parents who…

How do you interview people who are changing industries then? The only way a cook or a librarian can get out of that and into software could very well be side projects and open source contributions. With your heuristics, you'd only consider their cooking experience and say "well that's not software" and pass.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#203

Maybe it's the jobs that I've worked, or the country I'm in ( UK ). But I've really not seen this shift towards looking at portfolios of open source work rather than CV's. Every company I've worked for has requested a CV, and often does some form of test or in person interview centred around programming problems. The tests vary in quality and depth. I wouldn't think of myself as a passionate developer. I have a famil…

> I have a feeling that there's a silent majority of developers such as myself, that do enjoy programming and have a "passion" for it, but do not let this passion dissuade them from family time, or having more varied down time.

I think you're absolutely right. For me (he said, ironically, whilst responding to a post on Hacker News) it's just not that healthy to spend even more time sat in front of a computer programming away than I did at work.

As it happens nowadays I don't spend that much time at work programming so this does tend to make me more inclined to do so outside of work. But everything has to be in balance: I have family, I have friends, I have other interests. I need to spend time with family, with friends, and pursuing those other interests, otherwise I start to go nuts.

So no: I do not have a plethora of OSS contributions, nor will I ever have. My side projects aren't OSS and, at present, I have no intent to make them OSS. I'd need a motivation that I simply don't have in order to do that. Moreover my side projects are things that I find fun, that probably aren't very generally applicable, and that some would see as frivolous - but I deal with enough serious business at work.

In any case the thought of entitled internet randos getting in touch to demand free support because I've written an OSS library, module, or tool that's accidentally become somewhat popular and is now included in other modules and is used by corporations around the world who make tons of money in some tiny part off the back of using it is deeply unappealing.

Not that if you want to spend your free time on OSS there's anything wrong with it - far from it. If you love doing it then have at it and more power to you. But we need to dispense with the idea that this is for everyone any more than photography or collecting vinyl is for everyone.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#204
post #191
post #154

I like the article overall but I'm not sold on the passion ethos section as it was written. The author hints that they wouldn't want a surgeon who is passionate because they should be making rational decisions. But IMO passion isn't all about making an on the spot emotional decision without thinking things through. It's about their willingness to continue learning and advancing their craft because they have the motiv…

I hear what you are saying, but in fairness to the author of the article, he did say he would like people to care about their vocation. Also, I'd rather have a surgeon who was skilled, cared about his profession, and also was not burned out from overexertion trying to be "passionate" about his job. I think the medical field in general (not unlike the software development field in general) often undervalues people's t…

> from overexertion trying to be "passionate" about his job.

This phrasing captures the issue exactly, imo. The split is between someone who is "trying" to be "passionate" about their work, versus someone for whom that's just an apt description.

It seems like the discussions around "passion" tend to ignore that distinction. I think the problem could be alternately framed in terms of intrinsic/extrinsic motivation without losing much. The passionate developer is a proxy for someone intrinsically motivated by the act of constructing software, vs. extrinsic motivation, which would be something like salary.

So if someone is trying to be "passionate" about their work, that will not convert them from extrinsic motivation to intrinsic (in most cases!), so of course it's seen as empty.

The surgeon question can be restated in these terms too: prefer a surgeon who's driven by saving lives and refining their expertise in this particular mode of doing it, or a surgeon driven by salary?

(Of course this is a simplified/extremal statement of the problem, and a false dichotomy if taken literally: basically everyone is somewhere between those two poles.)

Re: The dispassionate developer

#205
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we've had many people in the past who've interviewed very well but turned out to be completely incompetent when assigned to a real project. Unpopular opinion on HN: This is actually quite common when you hire based purely on resumes or credentials. Some people are really good at interviewing and being charismatic enough to convince people to hire them. There are a lot of candidates who can talk the talk but really…

I would find 4 hours a lot. It is basically wholw afternoon.

Ever been to an onsite interview? It'll take you the same amount of time. Or longer. While being far higher pressure. And probably involve writing code on a whiteboard instead of an IDE.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#206
post #154

I like the article overall but I'm not sold on the passion ethos section as it was written. The author hints that they wouldn't want a surgeon who is passionate because they should be making rational decisions. But IMO passion isn't all about making an on the spot emotional decision without thinking things through. It's about their willingness to continue learning and advancing their craft because they have the motiv…

> the surgeon who puts in similar hours but also decides to speak at conferences / universities afterwards and is keeping up with everything while evolving their practice

In the medical field, it's common to get CME (continuing medical education) time and dollars allocated specifically for this purpose.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#207
>employers want employees who are passionate about their craft

Do they really? I feel that my employers have all preferred employees who prioritize business needs, smooth functioning of the corporate hierarchy, "doing what everyone else is doing", and writing code for the common denominator more than they prioritize personal feelings about code quality and about what technological decisions are correct. I feel that my employers would all have preferred a steady, dispassionate 9-5 corporate type over a passionate employee who burns the midnight oil. The midnight oil burner, they probably would think, is likely to be a "cowboy coder". He might be a loose cannon.

Not that any of this is surprising. Of course employers prefer employees who prioritize making the company money more highly than they prioritize passion about their craft.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#208
> For reasons that are complicated and that I don't fully understand, the software development community in the eighties and nineties developed a culture of anti-capitalism

This goes back to an earlier age of software, in the 1960s and 1970s, when much more software was being shared, among research groups and labs in Academia and industry, as it had not been commoditized and commercialized as such. As this gradually changed, it also motivated an embattled, somewhat-delayed, backlash in the form of the Free Software movement.

> and liberal values

Problematic term, because it means very different things historically vs. in current political discourse in the US.

> The idea of free software, for example, has led to a software economy where you, the user, are no longer the customer, but the product.

The author accepts as granted the foundational assumptions that:

* Users are customers, basically and originally.

* Software is a commodity, to be sold (as a product or service).

* Users are fundamentally disjoint from developers, and these groups of people interact through commercial entities.

Proponents of Free Software with an anti-Capitalist perspective would be to differ.

> The idea of open source, too, seems largely defunct as a means of 'sticking it to the man'.

While commercial corporations co-opt FOSS as much as they can, it has still, and is still, sticking it to the man: Billions of people, given only access to a computer, can now enjoy a huge variety of software to meet their needs and interests, without having to pay for it. A salaried software developer, sitting in some tech-rich organization, may fail to appreciate what a tremendous achievement this is. And there's the no less important ability to partake in development, and to build on the existing software with something new - which is much less accessible than plain use, but infinitely more accessible than with commercial closed-source software.

> You're expected to 'contribute' to open source software. Why? Because employers want employees who are passionate about their craft.

I don't know what employers expect. But we, i.e. users and developers of FOSS, need your help to add features and fix bugs and write docs and file bugs, for the software we use or want.

> Would you like engineers to be passionate as they design new bridges?

I hope they could be. This is less likely the less in touch they are with the people and groups who need their bridge; and the more alienated they are from their work in general.

> passionate... I'd prefer that they keep a cool head and make as rational decisions as possible.

This is a false dichotomy. The dispassionate programmer is more often than not the disinterested programmer; the "I just work here" programmer; the programmer who is writing software to meet arbitrary goals set by far-away managers, not to have the tool they need or to help their friends and colleagues.

> This was back in my Microsoft days, so I suggested that they institute a training programme for the employees. To give it structure, they could, for example, study for some Microsoft certifications.

Ah... well, indeed, living in the Micorosft certified-whatever world will likely take care of your excessive passion problems.

> If I teach you something that improves your productivity, your employer benefits, too. I think that your employer should pay for that.

This, I agree with. But instead of "being dispassionate", I suggest we be _unionized_! Make those companies pay for this kind of professional development and meandering exploration of new knowledge and skills.

(And also remember that a lot of, or most of, FOSS isn't necessarily what you do in your day job anyway.)

Re: The dispassionate developer

#209
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the hiring side, it’s rare to see someone come through with significant OSS contributions. A small bug fix here or there is about the most I see from 90% of resumes. Every once in a while we see someone with a lot of open source contributions, or even full leadership of a popular project. These people would really prefer if we believed that OSS contributions and GitHub profiles replaced resumes or CVs, because it’…

Taking that a step further, we often actively discourage looking at OSS contributions during resume review for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. When we have done either of the above, the singles who work part time have a bunch of time to perfect their work suddenly have a lot to show over the single parents who…

This is bad for applicants who may be at dead-end jobs that don't provide much meaningful development experience, so instead choose to self-learn and/or contribute to OSS to fill the void.

Not saying your strategy is bad, just that you might miss some good candidates.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should try to eliminate irrelevant biases in the hiring process but we are fundamentally trying to select people to hire who will join our company and write good code. That quality is not evenly distributed in the population. Some of the gymnastics thinking that I see seems to suggest that we’d seek to hire fluent English speakers by interviewing evenly across all populations. By all means, I’d be more than happy…

People in China often don't speak fluent English because they grow up in a country where it's not a spoken language. People who don't contribute to OSS typically don't do it because they don't have the ability (some OSS code is held together by duct tape) but because they don't have time, interest or think it's harder than it is. If you have better tools to determine if someone is good at writing code for your compan…

Unless I’ve worked with you or someone that I deeply trust has and will vouch for you, I don’t have any stronger signal of your coding and teamwork abilities than a strong OSS contribution history can provide.

It’s rare for an interview process to provide more than 6 hours of content, some of which is non-evaluatable. Reference checks are all but useless compared to seeing actual work over time.

About 1 time in 6, you’ll interview a full standard deviation above or below your “true” ability. About 1 time in 50, you’ll turn in a +2σ (or -2σ) performance. That’s largely eliminated with personal experience, a trusted vouch, or a strong OSS portfolio.

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