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The dispassionate developer

blog.ploeh.dk

151–160 of 262 posts

Re: The dispassionate developer

#151
>As you start to ponder the implied ethos, the stranger it gets. Would you like engineers to be passionate as they design new bridges? Would you like a surgeon to be passionate as she operates on you? Would you like judges to be passionate as they pass sentence on your friend?

The answer is yes. In terms of engineers and passion, I would bet that an engineer who is passionate about designing bridges would be one that would have studied past designs and failures of bridges in great detail, be up on the latest benefits and issues in material science, who was aware of special considerations for weather or location. I would also bet that engineer would be able to design a better bridge than one that was just doing it purely because it paid money.

As for surgeons and passion, when I was in neurosurgery, the best surgeons I knew were passionate about their work. They were constantly reading the latest journals, attending conferences, going to courses to hone and refine their skill. They were also constantly evaluating themselves to see if they could do things better. Then there were others who were just coasting on what they knew worked in the past. I would rather go to a passionate surgeon any day.

As for judges, I would like a judge who is passionate about the law and justice. I want a judge who not only knows what the current law says, but who has researched and knows how it came to be, the various precedents and circumstances that law has been applied. I want one who has contributed review articles to law journals, versus a judge who quickly does a Google or Lexis-Nexus search about the law to supplement their knowledge from 15 years ago in law school before they render their judgement.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#152
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking that a step further, we often actively discourage looking at OSS contributions during resume review for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. When we have done either of the above, the singles who work part time have a bunch of time to perfect their work suddenly have a lot to show over the single parents who…

We're having a bit of a debate about this internally as the company I work for is struggling to hire good candidates. For a while we've had a take-home test and that has increased our success rate somewhat. But as you say, we really don't want to lay unreasonable expectations on people who may have other obligations, but we've had many people in the past who've interviewed very well but turned out to be completely in…

> Maybe we're just really bad at interviews? It probably doesn't help that management here is almost entirely non-technical. There's usually a developer or two sitting in on the interview to try and balance it out, but I don't think any of us would consider ourselves particularly good at interviewing people.

This seems to be the issue, in fact it's quite baffling to me. If you are interviewing for a technical role, why would you not perform a technical interview led by technical staff?

I'm not saying the other stuff is not important as well, but this reads to me like you are essentially leaving the core of the role out of the interview (I'm not sure what "usually a developer or two are sitting in as well" means).

Re: The dispassionate developer

#153

> Open source good; commercial software bad. Free software good; commercial software bad. I don't get it, is he being facetious or am I missing the point in some other way? To anyone in tech those are obviously orthogonal concepts. There is commercial FOSS, commercial proprietary software, non-commercial FOSS, non-commercial proprietary software. And if you think commercial software is the problem, as some communist…

I read "commercial" as "proprietary."

Re: The dispassionate developer

#154
I like the article overall but I'm not sold on the passion ethos section as it was written.

The author hints that they wouldn't want a surgeon who is passionate because they should be making rational decisions.

But IMO passion isn't all about making an on the spot emotional decision without thinking things through. It's about their willingness to continue learning and advancing their craft because they have the motivation and passion to do so without getting burnt out. They do it because deep down it's truly what they love doing.

So in the surgeon example, would you rather want the surgeon who clocks in and out for the day and that's it while doing the bare minimum to keep their license? Or the surgeon who puts in similar hours but also decides to speak at conferences / universities afterwards and is keeping up with everything while evolving their practice? Perhaps they do more work (surgeries), but not putting in more hours. Maybe they specialize in 1 thing and then just crank that out continuously to become an expert in their field.

If given the choice I'd go for the more passionate surgeon every time.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#155
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. At this point it's just a paycheck, and such an easy (large) one that I can't possibly justify bothering to find any other line of work. Even if doing something else would make me happier, ultimately work is just work and optimizing for the least effort/highest reward is really the only criteria for it IMO. It leaves more room to find your meaning and passion in life outside of what you have to do to pay…

Mine is frustrating and not a large paycheck at all. I was just browsing job posting this morning, but it's depressing. There's nothing interesting out there that pays more, and my skill set is not really in demand.

[deleted]

Re: The dispassionate developer

#156

I was a dispassionate, disenfranchised, dejected and defeated developer. Then I quit. Now I'm happy.

Same here, my last day will be on May 7th! Let the happiness ensue! I have around 45 years of living expenses saved up, so it will be a REALLY long time till I need a job again.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#157
post #154

I like the article overall but I'm not sold on the passion ethos section as it was written. The author hints that they wouldn't want a surgeon who is passionate because they should be making rational decisions. But IMO passion isn't all about making an on the spot emotional decision without thinking things through. It's about their willingness to continue learning and advancing their craft because they have the motiv…

Meh, the surgeon obsessed with self promotion and status seeking might not be the best one as they may be more focused on themselves than the task at hand.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, your experience and ability shouldn't be considered the norm It is the norm in my line of work. I mean in my other line of work that isn't a software development.

Oh sure, sorry I should have clarified, I was talking about software development. I thought that was implied, but happy to be explicit.

I also find it strange how some people are so incredibly emotional about this subject like being punched in the face or having their car stolen at gun point.

I like programming as hobby so I choose to program outside of work. By no means is that sentiment meant to suggest any form of hostility. There isn’t even any competition implied.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#159
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking that a step further, we often actively discourage looking at OSS contributions during resume review for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. When we have done either of the above, the singles who work part time have a bunch of time to perfect their work suddenly have a lot to show over the single parents who…

> for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. This is just another single dimension hiring credential, that will result in limiting your hiring pool to people like yourself. My code ran on 70+ million machines last month, but I've come to decline any timed or proctored technical interviews. It's not that I'm too good…

Agree

Re: The dispassionate developer

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're having a bit of a debate about this internally as the company I work for is struggling to hire good candidates. For a while we've had a take-home test and that has increased our success rate somewhat. But as you say, we really don't want to lay unreasonable expectations on people who may have other obligations, but we've had many people in the past who've interviewed very well but turned out to be completely in…

> we've had many people in the past who've interviewed very well but turned out to be completely incompetent when assigned to a real project. Unpopular opinion on HN: This is actually quite common when you hire based purely on resumes or credentials. Some people are really good at interviewing and being charismatic enough to convince people to hire them. There are a lot of candidates who can talk the talk but really…

Although, if you wanted them to do a longer project, Basecamp’s method where they pay the applicant to do the project seems like a good way to do it. And you’ll get the most complete picture of their expertise (of course, you wouldn’t want to do this until the last step of the process).
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