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Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

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Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#921

Post by africanboy »

arp242 wrote: post #839
africanboy wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The FSF is Free Software's worst enemy. That's a bold claim, but since I don't have a horse in this race my opinion is that FOSS space is huge and one size fits all is not possible anymore. They can't make everybody happy and it would be silly to even try. If you don't like FSF, you can support other entities. I believe it's perfectly fine to disagree, but I also believe FSF has never forced anybody to do anything…

I don't think RMS is "the devil", but we do allow him to frame the debate and priorities, and I don't think this is a good thing as I feel his priorities are all wrong. The more mindshare RMS takes up, the less there is for things that do matter. Why aren't we using some Free Software platform to develop our software on? No really, if we can't get our own tooling together then what does that say about the movement as…

> Imagine an alternative universe where the FSF had invested significant time an resources in developing a Savannah that actually, you know, worked well.

it works well enough for those who use it I guess

But I also like to imagine a world where projects like Savannah are backed by investors with very deep pockets instead of existing only out of the hard work of volunteers

Anyway, I use a private instance of gitea for my personal projects, it costs me 3 euros/month for the hosting and another couple bucks for the storage

I agree with what Stallman says about SAAS, I am not as radical as he is, not by a long shot, but SaaS platforms pose a big risk in terms of vendor lock in

I also share your frustration about what it could be, but it's not (yet, hopefully)

> I don't work for a big corporation btw; I've actually been work full-time on Free Software for the last 2 years, making about €700/month or so. At least I put my money where my mouth is :-)

you deserve my gratitude then for all the work that you do personally and as a part of the FOSS community

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#922

Post by zeruch »

account42 wrote: post #874
zeruch wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just neurodivergence, but its that he recognizes where he jabs people and pretty much admits he doesn't care. I once had this conversation about with with ESR and I remember him saying "RMS doesn't care about the 'social overhead' of most person to person interactions" and so he kind of does his own normative preferences, thinking that because he finds them ideal, that others shouldn't be offended....but the…

> I've listened to him be rude to former co-workers (one seemingly on the basis that she was a woman in a technical role) Care to back that accusation up with anything?

It was a direct statement he made to a colleague when we both were at VA Research and he berated her for some item related to how we were hosting the FSF at the time. That's where I first saw that he is gracious when it suits him and is otherwise generally a boor. He's done nothing since to change that view.

I also observed him trying to dress people down ad nauseum for a litany of inanities: telling me and several other staff from VA when it changed from VA Research to VA Linus that it should be "VA GNU/Linux" while the rest of us were trying to have a conversation with other people. Or the time he could barely control his irritation at an awards event when Linus Torvalds' toddler daughter upstaged him at an awards presentation. Or when he seemed clueless and/or ambivalent about any number of things that other people felt.

Yes, I have a strong negative opinion about RMS. No, it is not based on tertiary opinions, but direct or near-line observations.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#923

Post by WindyLakeReturn »

Aloha wrote: post #330
nostrademons wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

It's like this, I've spent a lifetime learning a rulebook by trial and error that everyone else just seems to know . It's absolutely maddening when the rules suddenly change for no discernible reason, often with little warning and grave consequences with no second chances for screwing it up. I see people clamoring for a safe spaces and I wonder where I can find such a thing? (To an extent I can find one at sci-fi, an…

>To an extent I can find one at sci-fi, anime and furry conventions are mostly safe spaces for people like me

Is it a safe space when what you say can be video taped and then used against you by all the other areas of life?

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#924

Post by WindyLakeReturn »

ethbr0 wrote: post #98
nostrademons wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

Honestly asking, what's the difference between someone being neurodivergent and just thoughtless / mean / an ass?

Intent and justification.

Intent is the easier one to understand. Neurodivergent often don't act with the same intent that someone being an asshole does. Two people tell you that you shouldn't be eating that cookie. One is intending to be mean an to hurt you. The other cares about you and means the message in the best interest of your health, not realizing it will hurt.

With time and some prompting they can be led to understand how the message would be interpreted and realize it is hurt and stop, but it happens much slower and is often too little too late.

Justification is the harder to understand or empathize with possibility. Due to the previous issue impacting every area of life, often resulting in a significant decrease in quality of life and a significant increase in emotional pain, some will lower the extent they empathize with others. It is harder to explain because people think of their own times being hurt by others and think how they had the option to just do better than was done to them and rise above, not conceptualizing what qualitative differences occur when a pain goes from a short term event to a life long occurrence.

One further problem is that justification is only sometimes deemed appropriate by society. The differences in what are deemed appropriate differ strongly enough I'm hesitant to list examples because many will consider just making the comparison as a very asshole move. I am not at all clear if this consideration is in good faith or not.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#925

Post by krageon »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #910
krageon wrote: post #908

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't really engage with what I said at all, except at the most superficial level. It's really not a very nice way to have a conversation, especially given that regardless of whether or not I agree I was absolutely trying to help you.

I’m sorry but I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to get from me here. You said: > You may have issues with specific things that were said (or how they were said), but that isn't clear from your response. Perhaps you could add that, so the author can learn. I addressed those specifics, as far as I can tell all of the specifics of substance. I was engaging your suggestion in good faith. I did take and accept…

In that case I apologise.

The nuance that I think you are missing is that the OP is talking about how the experience shouldn't be generalised and turned into a rule: The person responded to said that sitting at the girl's table should be an indicator that starts consideration of "maybe this is gender dysphoria". The OP thinks this is dangerous and harmful to children in it's proposed form.

I'm missing a lot of cultural context here (What is a "girl's table"?), but I can definitely see the point OP is trying to make. I'll agree with you it was worded problematically.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#927

Post by gypsyharlot »

junke wrote: post #524
gypsyharlot wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Unfortunately, there are activists within the GNU movement, like Andy Wingo, that have done everything they can to have RMS removed from everything he has built.

People part of the GNU movement say "we owe a debt of gratitude to Richard Stallman for his decades of important work in the free software movement". Andy Wingo said "he created GNU, speaking it into existence via prophetic narrative and via code; yes, he inspired many people, myself included, to make the vision of a GNU system into a reality; and yes, he should be recognized for these things." They also say: "Yet, w…

Thanks for finding those resources. In this one:

https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and...

He says:

"The result, sadly, is that a significant proportion of those that have stuck with GNU don't see any problems with RMS."

Yes, isn't it sad that so many don't see any problems with RMS. What can we do about that? How can we make people see problems with RMS? This is despicable activism.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#928

Post by eyelidlessness »

krageon wrote: post #925
eyelidlessness wrote: post #910

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry but I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to get from me here. You said: > You may have issues with specific things that were said (or how they were said), but that isn't clear from your response. Perhaps you could add that, so the author can learn. I addressed those specifics, as far as I can tell all of the specifics of substance. I was engaging your suggestion in good faith. I did take and accept…

In that case I apologise. The nuance that I think you are missing is that the OP is talking about how the experience shouldn't be generalised and turned into a rule: The person responded to said that sitting at the girl's table should be an indicator that starts consideration of "maybe this is gender dysphoria". The OP thinks this is dangerous and harmful to children in it's proposed form. I'm missing a lot of cultur…

Thank you for explaining your perspective, I understand the disconnect much better now. I went back and read the comment (the “girl’s table” one, not the “dangerous” response), and even trying to apply your clarification I still don’t read it as generalizing. I see that commenter applying to themselves and their own experience a more general statement from the comment above. In other words I see them identifying with it personally, not applying it to anyone else.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#929

Post by silver-machine »

Aloha wrote: post #330
nostrademons wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

It's like this, I've spent a lifetime learning a rulebook by trial and error that everyone else just seems to know . It's absolutely maddening when the rules suddenly change for no discernible reason, often with little warning and grave consequences with no second chances for screwing it up. I see people clamoring for a safe spaces and I wonder where I can find such a thing? (To an extent I can find one at sci-fi, an…

Aloha, yeah, I hear you. The world has changed a lot in my 49 years and some of it is unrecognizable to me.

however, this is an imperfect world that needs a lot of change, and it's not going to stop changing, so you're going to have to figure this out. I assume you're a technologist, you are already dealing with constant change? How is this any different?

Think about it this way: Would you hire an SDE who told you they coded down to Java 1.4 standards because that's where their comfort zone is? Java 1.4 is not where the world is in 2021, just like being creepy to your colleagues is not where 2021 is.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#930

Post by silver-machine »

nostrademons wrote: post #41
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #8

I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally of…

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

> When applied to autistic or neurodivergent individuals, however, PC norms work to disadvantage an already disadvantaged minority against groups that are both larger and often more economically and culturally free.

are you saying that the undergrads that Stallman harassed at MIT are more economically and culturally free than he is? Are you saying that we should give a pass to bad bosses who turn their subordinates lives' into a tower defense game?

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