Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#221

Post by zozbot234 » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #182

esja wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might have been downvoted for conflating gay and trans concerns as though they are the same. From what I've observed there are genuine conflicts between those communities and discussion is necessary to resolve them - it's not automatically "criticism". For example quite a few of the "gender critical" people being referred to here are actually lesbians, and they've been accused of hate or transphobia because they…

No. Don’t claim to speak for lesbians when there are actual lesbians here. (Hi! You don’t know what you’re talking about.) This is the propaganda bigoted lesbians spread in order to cast themselves as the victims. This is a classic abuser tactic. Nobody is forced or compelled to be attracted to anyone, and nobody believes that should be the case. If you make blanket statements like “I’m not attracted to people of X g…

> If you make blanket statements like “I’m not attracted to people of X group,” you likely have some unexamined prejudice

Does that also apply when the group is men/women (as opposed to AMAB/AFAB folks which would be the 'gender critical' view)? Should we all be pansexual?

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#222

Post by savingsPossible » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #141

sonthonax wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're in agreement that knowingly associating oneself with pedophiles deserves a degree of opprobrium. However that does raise the question, how much opprobrium? The person in question probably suffers psychologically a great deal. Who wouldn't if they were dealt with the double-hand of gender-dysphoria and a pedophile father? I think it is safe to conclude this person is not well. Does the world really stand to gain…

> The person in question probably suffers psychologically a great deal. Who wouldn't if they were dealt with the double-hand of gender-dysphoria and a pedophile father? You don't get a pass on hiring your dad while he is being charged for sex crimes just because you are trans.

No, but you get a pass because he was not yet convicted.

that is what a conviction means -- we should not punish people before it, nor should we punish people that associate with them

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#223

Post by stonecraftwolf » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #206

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. “Gender critical” people (they are not feminists) regularly harass trans people, including kids, to the point of suicide. They lobby for discriminatory legislation that makes life-saving medical care difficult or impossible to access for trans people. They are instrumental in spreading bewilderingly unscientific anti-trans propaganda with the deliberate effect of harming an…

Homosexuality and heterosexuality are modern inventions, yes - they first show up in the discourse of 19th c. psychology. And no, rape culture was never the province of "certain minorities", in fact it was quite widespread among those we would now (retrospectively!) identify as heterosexual. The primacy of sexual consent and of romantic, egalitarian relationships are very modern developments.

The words themselves are modern inventions, reflecting the western medicalization of the concepts, which in turn reflected bigotry — declaring something an “illness” is a great way to get people on board with eradicating it. But gay people and gay relationships existed in pretty much every society for which we have records, long before the British decided to coin a new word. (And in fact, so did trans people.)

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet, etc.

Your ignorance on this is truly stunning.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#224

Post by axguscbklp » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

howinteresting wrote: post #216

axguscbklp wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for some people, transition is a regrettable outcome, even in the very literal sense that they do regret it. "affirmation-only" would mean affirming even people who actually would end up regretting a transition. The technology does not exist to actually make a man into a woman or a woman into a man.

That's not what affirmation-only means. It means supporting people as they come to terms with whatever the discrepancy between their phenotypical and subconscious sex characteristics.

Ah, got you. But then "affirmation-only" seems like a misleading name. Cause it's not really "affirmation-only", it's more like "be supportive and nice".

Edit: maybe I'm just not being charitable enough to jargon. I guess I can see how "affirmation-only" might be understood to mean "affirmation-only of felt gender identity" in the context of certain communities.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#225

Post by sonthonax » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #137

I think the unwelcome article is probably this one, since it is easily found with a Google search suggestion: "Aimee Challenor G[raham Linehan]". NB the final picture is Challenor dressed as an infant (dress + teddy bear). Most other images are cartoon drawings from fetish/furry sites. https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/ashton-challenor-the-bo... (I'm posting this link as it seems important to the discussion. I'll…

That's such an incredibly vile article, it pretty much amounts to cyberstalking. It's pretty disgusting how he morally grandstands after digging out the fetish content of a really troubled 15 year old:

> Whilst we might recognise that Aimee Challenor is a tragic victim in this mess, we must remember the positions of power and influence he held and how quickly and easily he reached them.

The Spectator is equally vile too. It's the best example of how the British class system gives the most mediocre fringe twats a platform to deliver their vitriol with a public school veneer.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#226

Post by slibhb » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #220

slibhb wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a contradiction in terms. Supporting trans people means believing that transition is not some sort of "regrettable outcome". No one is saying transition is a "regrettable outcome". What people are saying is that some people may think they are trans and then change their minds later. In these cases a watchful-waiting approach is better because it may allow the person to avoid life-altering decisions like sur…

> No one is saying transition is a "regrettable outcome". Please for the love of christ just spend 10 minutes reading some of the gender critical arguments before trying to represent them here, because you're saying stuff that is 1) untrue and 2) very obviously untrue to anyone who's given even cursory attention to what these people are saying. Transition currently has very low rates of regret; lower than many other…

You interpreted my post as a bizarre absolute. I meant "no one here," not "no one period".

Either way, your post is nit-picking. My point was that being against affirmation in all cases is simple not the same thing as viewing all transitions as a "regrettable outcome".

> Transition currently has very low rates of regret; lower than many other forms of surgery. Hip replacement has higher rates of regret and there's not a mainstream movement trying to prevent access to that.

Wonderful. But hip replacement is not elective surgery based on the subjective feelings of the patient. As long as one person regrets it, it is my opinion that we should prefer a watchful-waiting approach and I can say that without "failing to support trans people".

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#227

Post by esja » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #182

esja wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might have been downvoted for conflating gay and trans concerns as though they are the same. From what I've observed there are genuine conflicts between those communities and discussion is necessary to resolve them - it's not automatically "criticism". For example quite a few of the "gender critical" people being referred to here are actually lesbians, and they've been accused of hate or transphobia because they…

No. Don’t claim to speak for lesbians when there are actual lesbians here. (Hi! You don’t know what you’re talking about.) This is the propaganda bigoted lesbians spread in order to cast themselves as the victims. This is a classic abuser tactic. Nobody is forced or compelled to be attracted to anyone, and nobody believes that should be the case. If you make blanket statements like “I’m not attracted to people of X g…

I'm talking about someone I know who has been in precisely this situation.

You don't know anything about me, or that situation, but you are happy to accuse me of:

- Claiming to speak for lesbians - Spreading propaganda from bigots - Using "abuser tactics" - Having unexamined prejudices - Making prejudicial assumptions - Having no respect for trans people - Not engaging in good faith

I'd actually be really happy to discuss this topic in good faith, as it's important to someone I care about, and you clearly have a very different opinion. But I'd want you to read the HN guidelines first and make an effort to follow them.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#228

Post by 9387367 » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

phpnode wrote: post #22

HN is also penalising threads that discuss this. This post has 74 upvotes in 27 minutes and 11 comments at time of writing. Ordinarily it would significantly outrank most of the other posts on the front page, but it doesn't seem to be able to break past #15. Either this is because HN users are flagging it, or because something else is going on. As Reddit is a YC company it'd be really nice to hear an explanation. Thi…

This thread has more votes (454 points) than any on the front page apart from number 1 (540 points) with more comments, 205 vs 118 from the top post.

As of now, it seats on the second page at #44.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#229

Post by Redoubts » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #140

phpnode wrote: post #22

HN is also penalising threads that discuss this. This post has 74 upvotes in 27 minutes and 11 comments at time of writing. Ordinarily it would significantly outrank most of the other posts on the front page, but it doesn't seem to be able to break past #15. Either this is because HN users are flagging it, or because something else is going on. As Reddit is a YC company it'd be really nice to hear an explanation. Thi…

I think many people don't care about Reddit at all and perceive these discussions as off topic and uninteresting. There are better spaces to discuss those, such as /r/SubredditDrama/. If this were a new article on the subject, it might fit. But links to Reddit threads while the drama is happening live? To me, that's gossip. Edit: Disclaimer because that's how it is on the internet, I am transgender. Yet I have never…

This is absolutely the case.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#230

Post by marcusverus » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

thefz wrote: post #52

underseacables wrote: post #8

Identity politics has become a shield and weapon for bad behavior - how dare you question me you must be a bigot. Whoever can gain the public’s attention first controls the narrative.

This beavior is super emphasized on reddit nowadays. Every subreddit is vertical, either you agree with what the collective mind thinks or you are out or downvoted to oblivion. There's no discussion anymore.

Occasionally you'll see someone step up to question the narrative, and they almost always preface their comments with a bit of moral signaling. It's like a bizarre ritual. They'll disavow, insult, or otherwise distance themselves from whichever 'other' is the target of the mob's ire, and only then will they offer up a contrary opinion.

I suppose they're responding rationally to the 'karmic' incentive.