Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why? • Hacker News Board

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#191

Post by Consultant32452 » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

nimos wrote: post #187

gnicholas wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, if landlords were allowed to use larger security deposits, some would choose to do this instead of raising the monthly rent. My friend is looking to rent out an ADU, and the first idea was to have a sizable security deposit in order to filter applicants who fully intended on paying rent from those who would be more likely to use the eviction moratorium. But apparently California tightened the rules aro…

Hmmm - I just paid 2 months deposit in 2021. Googling seems to say that is allowable. "Effective January 1, 2020, landlords may not request a security deposit of more than one month’s rent for an unfurnished unit, and two month’s rent for a furnished unit, if the unit is rented to a service member." The one month limit seems specific to service members.

I knew a couple who had such awful credit they were not allowed to rent without paying the entire year's rent up front.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#192

Post by Lammy » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:23 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #184

Lammy wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like it goes way beyond "impoverished" when the oppression and exploitation of free labor from a particular group is woven into hundreds of years of cultural DNA of the country, right from the very beginning written into the founding documents of South Carolina in the 1660s: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/nc05.asp (section 110) There are so many intersecting social issues too, like America's experime…

I can't speak to cultural DNA. But I guess we could test it by looking at kids who at a young age moved to a different country and whether that cultural DNA sticks. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think the media and entertainment have a hand in this and the establishment does not care --they want cheap labor. So on the one hand it's Fast Times at Ridgemont High, on the other we big tech and others want American kids to…

> I think the media and entertainment have a hand in this and the establishment does not care

I agree, but I think the establishment does care quite a lot. That's what I was getting at when describing my personal view of the "establishment" as a kind of conscious entity, not exactly what I would call human, but conscious all the same. Like a corporation where harmful decisions end up being no particular individual's "fault" because every individual contributed but a sliver of the final thoughtform, individuals doing their best but who exist in a space where the scope of possibility is already narrowed for them in a way they might not even notice.

That's also why the US media industry and cultural exports are so important here. My personal view of a country is descriptive rather than prescriptive, that borders are implicit based on the speed that ideas can travel, and the US media-exported culture was the dominant one when global instant communication became possible. Makes me think about the esoteric outcomes of the copyright wars too. The big bad RIAA/MPAA get to be the boogeyman and absorb all of my nerd-hate-energy, but the outcome ensures that only current-generation media with establishment-approved themes makes it to our eyes and our ears.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#193

Post by reducesuffering » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:26 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #179

vkou wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not living in an environment where everything can be taken away from you through one bad interaction with say, a policeman helps. Having a stable family with positive role models, preferably one not torn apart by brushes with the justice system helps, too. These kinds of problems get inherited from generation to generation, even if (a damn big if ) the current generation were not directly subjected to any of the orig…

Agree... I think unfortunately for multi-generational Americans there is a weird stigma when you come from certain backgrounds --some people escape them, but not most. Immigrants don't usually have this stigma and burden. They come for the opportunity which they believe comes with putting in hours or work and study. If you're second generation and greater, you assume many Americanisms like you're entitled to American…

You hit a note with me about your American upbringing because I've had the same thoughts about mine but hadn't seen it hit it on the head like you have. American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. I know media like movies has a hand in this portrayal but I'm not sure it's really intentional like you allude to. I still wonder what it really is that some of us make it out into well paying careers while most of my HS cohort also mostly coasts on lackluster degrees and jobs. Race hasn't been any common thread in outcomes I've seen intra-high school, whereas the biggest differences seem to occur between high schools.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#194

Post by dcolkitt » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #133

roguecoder wrote: post #17

While the article is interesting, there is one dynamic it missed: tech debt. Starting around 1975, housing supply stopped keeping up with the growth of housing demand. It picked back up fifteen years later, around 1990: https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-goldilocks-problem-of... (But that is on a national level: in the West, in comparison, housing growth hasn't been sufficient to house the new households formed a…

> Since many cities currently lack the recently-aging housing that would normally be filtering down market right now Huh.... in the UK house prices go up for older houses. You'd pay a premium to get an interwar house, or a 19th century house. Do people not like old houses in the US? They're usually better built, with more character, built on more land, in my experience.

Things you're much more likely to get in a new house:

* Central A/C

* Fire safety (can't put a price on your family's safety)

* Attached garages

* High ceilings

* High capacity electrical circuits (Victorian homes weren't built for modern gadgets)

* Swimming pools

* More bathrooms

* Larger windows

* Better insulation

* Tighter seals to stop bugs and pests creeping in

* Better lighting

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#195

Post by Lammy » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

reducesuffering wrote: post #193

mc32 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree... I think unfortunately for multi-generational Americans there is a weird stigma when you come from certain backgrounds --some people escape them, but not most. Immigrants don't usually have this stigma and burden. They come for the opportunity which they believe comes with putting in hours or work and study. If you're second generation and greater, you assume many Americanisms like you're entitled to American…

You hit a note with me about your American upbringing because I've had the same thoughts about mine but hadn't seen it hit it on the head like you have. American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. I know media like movies has a hand in this portrayal but I'm not sure it's really intentional like you allude to. I still wonder what it really is that some of us make it out into well paying caree…

> American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect.

They would be foolish to value those things when they can look around the world at large and see how success vs failure is pretty much some combination of luck and network/nepotism.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#196

Post by eurasiantiger » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #175

the__alchemist wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some considerations: - Modern homes tend to have large kitchens, bathrooms, and bedrooms, and open common areas. People may prefer this over the misc-rooms approach that's more common in older places. - Old homes in the US may not have 3-pronged outlets - Old homes may have faucets that don't stick out far enough to get your hands under. Ones in the UK may have separate faucets for hot and cold. (Is the inte…

The intent is to fill the basin.

The intent is not to die of waterborne infection.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#197

Post by anovikov » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #133

roguecoder wrote: post #17

While the article is interesting, there is one dynamic it missed: tech debt. Starting around 1975, housing supply stopped keeping up with the growth of housing demand. It picked back up fifteen years later, around 1990: https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-goldilocks-problem-of... (But that is on a national level: in the West, in comparison, housing growth hasn't been sufficient to house the new households formed a…

> Since many cities currently lack the recently-aging housing that would normally be filtering down market right now Huh.... in the UK house prices go up for older houses. You'd pay a premium to get an interwar house, or a 19th century house. Do people not like old houses in the US? They're usually better built, with more character, built on more land, in my experience.

I assume this is because in the UK old houses don't have proper HVAC and neither do new ones. In the U.S., at least the new ones do.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#198

Post by danans » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #133

roguecoder wrote: post #17

While the article is interesting, there is one dynamic it missed: tech debt. Starting around 1975, housing supply stopped keeping up with the growth of housing demand. It picked back up fifteen years later, around 1990: https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-goldilocks-problem-of... (But that is on a national level: in the West, in comparison, housing growth hasn't been sufficient to house the new households formed a…

> Since many cities currently lack the recently-aging housing that would normally be filtering down market right now Huh.... in the UK house prices go up for older houses. You'd pay a premium to get an interwar house, or a 19th century house. Do people not like old houses in the US? They're usually better built, with more character, built on more land, in my experience.

People do pay a premium for older houses in the US, but only when they are located in a desirable location, which they often are.

Ab old house in the middle of nowhere, no matter how "well built" isn't going to command such a premium.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#199

Post by cosmie » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:02 AM UTC

alisonkisk wrote: post #101

gnicholas wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, if landlords were allowed to use larger security deposits, some would choose to do this instead of raising the monthly rent. My friend is looking to rent out an ADU, and the first idea was to have a sizable security deposit in order to filter applicants who fully intended on paying rent from those who would be more likely to use the eviction moratorium. But apparently California tightened the rules aro…

How is prepaying rent different from a larger security deposit?

Security deposits are legally the tenants funds held in escrow by the landlord until the end of the lease. They tend to be heavily regulated in tenant law, with stipulations on how large they can be, what can be deducted from the security deposit upon lease termination, how long after lease termination the landlord has to return the remainder of the deposit, whether they have to be held in an actual escrow account[1], etc.

Prepaid rent is just that - it's rent for some future period that the landlord is just receiving early, so doesn't come with all the legal strings attached[2]. The landlord recognizes the income when they receive it and it becomes their money to do what they want with at that point.

The nuance goes beyond just semantics, too. If a tenant files for bankruptcy, the security deposit the landlord is holding in escrow is considered an asset of the tenant's estate. Whereas prepaid rent is not, unless the contract was executed super recently and the judge determines it unfairly harmed other creditors and wants to claw it back.

[1] https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/taxation/property-tax/adv...

[2] I'm sure this isn't a universal truth - in the US alone, tenant law tends to be an overlaid mishmash of federal, state, and local regulations. So I'm sure some places attach strings to it. But many if not most places do not.

Re: Rents for the rich are going down, rents for the poor are going up. Why?

#200

Post by hntrader » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #155

rogerdickey wrote: post #13

It's not "rents for the rich" it's "rents for higher priced apartments" and it's basic supply & demand. This headline stokes unnecessary class conflict. WaPo should be ashamed.

It's better not to fulminate. If the market restricts access to housing for working class people, we can't just wave our hands and say "oh, well, markets". Chicago doesn't have rent control. The implication of the story is that the market is failing in Chicago, and that's a problem, whether or not it's the product of top-down policy or bottom-up market dynamics.

How is it the "market restricting access" if the rents went up because of the eviction moratorium? If that's the reason, then what you said is true in a trivial literal sense, but that's blaming the consequence (market pricing) instead of the real cause (government policy).

Likewise, if housing supply is restricted due to regulations, that's not the "market failing" - that's government policy guaranteeing that rents will be high for poor people.

The only way to make rents cheaper for all poor people is to incentivize massive construction of new apartments, or at least clear all regulatory hurdles to doing so and simply let the market do the rest for you. Flood the market with supply. The more supply, the cheaper rents will be, since demand is mostly stable.