Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not confused. It's possible to do the right thing in the large and in the small at the same time. Using cross-cultural fluency to defend Richard Stallman, who doesn't care one iota about cross-cultural fluency, and constantly embarrasses people inside and outside his own culture, is weird.
You're completely confused. What constitutes the right thing is specific to culture. Culture a lot of components (nationality/ethnicity, professional culture, neurodiversity, etc.). You're imposing your value system on Richard. You're being called on it, and you're doubling down, which is exactly what you fault Richard for. Two posts in, you should know better. From within Richard's cultural frame, he's doing the rig…
Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
811–820 of 943 posts
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#812Earlier quoted context omitted.
> is not much of a defense, to me, ethically So what? It's not a defense, obviously, but it's enough to ask not to use the word "assault" when talking about those accusations because it's clearly misleading. It makes you imagine different things when you hear it than what is actually being talked about. You don't even have to give Minsky any benefit of doubt to ask for that. Whether that changes the moral or ethical…
> It's not a defense, obviously, but it's enough to ask not to use the word "assault" when talking about those accusations because it's clearly misleading. Is it though? If the victim was coerced, and he’s complicit in causing a great deal of harm, why wouldn’t we call it assault? Not all sexual assault involves battery, and pretending that it does is silly. >Like, c'mon, showing up in that thread to argue about used…
> The fact that it’s expected is the part I find unacceptable.
Thanks for explicitly spelling this out then. This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down".
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#813Earlier quoted context omitted.
He doesn't do the right thing. He becomes agitated and sometimes aggressive when anyone points out that they're uncomfortable with his behaviour. He is not interested in their perspective or comfort.
You're even more confused. Please reread: "I'll generally excuse people who are trying to do the right thing. Richard is trying to do the right thing." I understand within your cultural frame and value system, ethical behavior is defined with regards to other people's comfort. That's not true for Richard (not for the culture I was born in, for that matter; I don't much care if people around me feel comfortable, nor i…
This doesn't seem consistent with the commonly accepted meaning of "comfortable." By their very nature things that make someone uncomfortable are things they care about. If they truly didn't care they would not experience discomfort.
Are there really cultures where inflicting suffering on others is not "within their cultural frame and value system"?
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#814Earlier quoted context omitted.
"because he is a prominent figure and at the same time white, male" Oh right. I probably confused parent posters words for .. I don't know. Isn't he or she (less likely) exactly saying this? That RMS was targeted because he is white and male and not because of what he did and said? How is that not thinking along the lines of conspiracy? Exaggerated, yes. But strawman? Where exactly?
There's a huuuuge gap between "some prominent old white dudes might be targeted in specific communities" and "white guys are the most persecuted people on earth." When the Stallman thing was still fresh, I saw people online argue that it _didn't really matter_ whether Minsky actually did anything wrong, or whether it was inappropriate for Stallman to defend him. There are too many old white guys in prominent position…
But they usually don't have much power or influence.
Implying that he was targeted because he was white and male, implies that those crazy people have a lot of power and influence - which means conspiracy. Now sure, conspiracies can be true, but you maybe know how they say, extra ordinary claims, require extra ordinary evidence.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#815Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not a defense, obviously, but it's enough to ask not to use the word "assault" when talking about those accusations because it's clearly misleading. Is it though? If the victim was coerced, and he’s complicit in causing a great deal of harm, why wouldn’t we call it assault? Not all sexual assault involves battery, and pretending that it does is silly. >Like, c'mon, showing up in that thread to argue about used…
"To assault" means "to make a physical attack on". You can rape someone or deal harm otherwise without assaulting them. > The fact that it’s expected is the part I find unacceptable. Thanks for explicitly spelling this out then. This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down".
That’s not how sexual assault is defined though. Quoting Wikipedia: “Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.” Avoiding this, like Stallman did, is a way of playing with semantics to reduce the seriousness of an accusation. He may be doing this because he’s autistic and rigid. I’ve done similar in the past because I’m similarly rigid, but it absolutely comes from a place of defensiveness too.
>This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down".
I’m autistic, dude. This shit makes no sense to me. Saying it’s a “standard way of thinking” is doing us a disservice. Public figures cannot express opinions like this about rape! Autistic men who don’t seem to understand consent like this, or think they have figured out an inconsistency in society’s rules around sex, freak me the hell out. I expect other autistic people to have a hard time complying with social rules, but the fact that the rules are difficult for us is not an excuse for not following them, particularly if you want to lead a diverse group of people.
Stallman is certainly not the best the autistic community has to offer, and I really wish you would stop implying he is.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#816Richard says he's not autistic. People who try to conflate his bad behaviour and autism are excusing his behaviour and unfairly generalising about autistic people. Richard is argumentative about his bad behaviour. He's not oblivious. Plenty of people have spoken to him about it. You'd think he might take a hint after being removed from his own organisation and all the surrounding commentary. He doesn't care. (Separat…
Upthread someone made a pretty convincing argument that he has no idea what he's talking about on that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26537802
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#817Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not everyone is dispensable. I doubt there would be true free software without him. We need militant people to push towards that direction and there are not many
It’s not the problem about being dispensable, it’s just that regardless of the hard work Stallman did over the past decades, it’s becoming harder and harder to justify his presence when many other contributors are losing faith the org because of him (such as the 33 people who signed a joint statement on the GNU project: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... ). Stallman should at least have a…
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#818Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure where you are from originally, but the US is fairly unique in the world when it comes to these things.
I'm getting on aside note on a side note already but this bumps into something I've been thinking about for days now so I can't resist. I'm beginning to think the swearing thing in the U.S. has to do with a perception of the concept of "innocence". Because I've noticed a lot of people only begin to have a problem with swearing here when it involves children. For sure, there are people who are just generally against s…
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#819Earlier quoted context omitted.
"To assault" means "to make a physical attack on". You can rape someone or deal harm otherwise without assaulting them. > The fact that it’s expected is the part I find unacceptable. Thanks for explicitly spelling this out then. This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down".
> "To assault" means "to make a physical attack on". You can rape someone without assaulting them. That’s not how sexual assault is defined though. Quoting Wikipedia: “Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.” Avoiding this, like Stallman did, is a way o…
Well, yes, since the point was to speak against what he called "accusation inflation" - which, I believe, wasn't even directed as much to Minksy's case as into general usage of that term in English:
The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault” is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X... The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing...
Notice how it was "accused of assaulting" that Stallman spoke against, and that "sexual assault" was then mentioned by Stallman as a way to explain his position.And guess what? I don't actually agree with his opinion about the term "sexual assault". I mean, I see his reasoning and I agree with it on its own, but to me that ship has sailed - it's not enough for me to challenge the already existing usage of that term; especially when it does actually make some sense to "inflate" its meaning, because the harm done by non-consensual sexual acts often greatly exceeds the physical attack aspect itself (which may not even be there). So I can accept that term even though I find it somewhat inaccurate, technically. Kinda metaphorical. It clearly is enough for Stallman though, as evidenced by many other language crusades he's been on for his whole life.
That said, the fact that it was "assault" and not "sexual assault" that was used there in the announcement seems to just prove the Stallman's point.
> Stallman is certainly not the best the autistic community has to offer, and I really wish you would stop implying he is.
Where was I implying that? That's very far from what I'd ever be comfortable with suggesting. Stallman doesn't even properly recognize his shortcomings and could really put much greater effort into dealing with them which would help him and his causes (and in turn, my causes, since I share his concerns about software freedom). This particular case is, however, not an example of that.
> Public figures cannot express opinions like this about rape!
Which opinions? What does "like this" mean? I honestly don't follow! My own views on this matter are exactly what some would describe as very "leftist" or "woke", and I do share your concern about men who don't understand consent. People in privileged position (which men that don't have to wear in a specific way every day out of the fear of being assaulted certainly are in) have greater responsibility when it comes to understanding such issues. That said, you don't need to belittle consent to point out that "assault" in "sexual assault" doesn't mean literal "assault" anymore, especially in context of situation where there was no evidence that the act even took place at all in the first place (which might have changed since, I don't know - I really couldn't care less about Minsky himself). Mind you - Stallman didn't even mention that. If his intention was to defend Minsky, he was a very poor defender.
Also,
> Autistic men who don’t seem to understand consent like this, or think they have figured out an inconsistency in society’s rules around sex, freak me the hell out.
That's a real issue, and it leads such people to plenty of suffering and depression. They should be educated, not ostracized. If we don't do it, they may turn somewhere else where they'll get worse - there are some circles that claim to offer them "help" and "answers" already, but those don't make the society a better place.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#820Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes or No answers are only relevant when you admit yourself to be incapable of nuanced thought. Alternatively : “Have you stopped beating your wife?” A simple yes or no answer will suffice. :)
Boo, word games. His question has a yes or no answer, yours does not.