The absolute worst scenario happened • Hacker News Board

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#181

Post by airhead969 » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #176

airhead969 wrote: post #138

50% of companies who lose all of their data go out of business within 6 months. They clearly failed to test their backups with regularly-tested restores. And, a separate alternative system should've had multiple revisions of critical pieces of information like customers, assets, inventory, bank accounts, debts, and employees. A data recovery shop could attempt to forensically-reconstruct SMS numbers. Look for logs an…

Reaching people seems like the least of their problems to be honest. If they use a payroll service, they'll have addresses--don't know about Europe but does just about any company do their own payroll in the US at this point? In any case, I assume most people know how to reach most of their direct reports and many of their co-workers. Especially at a fairly small company, I would think you could reconstruct contact i…

Yep. It's going to be a massive problem figuring out what's what, who owns what, and who owes what. I don't even see how they'll keep enough customers to stay afloat.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#182

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

mkl wrote: post #106

obedm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European here. Having 3 months written in your contract (and in many countries by law, like France) is pretty common. You can still quit if both parties agree. I've done it before. The clause is there to avoid this type of scenario where a key employee just says fuck it and leave. It works both ways. So a company can say fuck it and fire you just because they want to. It's a fantastic system. It can be exploited, but…

> So a company can say fuck it and fire you "Can't", right? Otherwise it sounds like American at-will employment.

[deleted]

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#183

Post by garmaine » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

tkgally wrote: post #159

ACS_Solver wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my EU-centric worldview, the US system of at-will employment, and of two-week notices as the standard courtesy, is crazy. Three months is the typical notice period for tech workers and other highly-skilled jobs. One month is the legal minimum in Sweden, and certainly several other countries. Of course it goes both ways, in fact it's even more difficult for the employer to get rid of an employee. An employee doesn'…

I remember reading many years ago that employees in the U.S. have the right to quit at any time because being penalized for quitting would make the employment “involuntary servitude,” which is forbidden by the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I can’t find any confirmation of that explanation on the web now, though.

This is correct. If you don't have the right to quit at any time, you are legally a slave / indentured servant. And that is very, very illegal.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#184

Post by ghaff » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #88

I actually don't see any issue that isn't simply a matter of money. Everything they list that's an issue seems to revolve around the fact that the employees with domain knowledge for the system have left the company. Reach out to them and hire them on as contractors. If they left under bad terms because the business was a bunch of dicks, expect to pay 10x market rate. If this is truly "fix this or the business is out…

Even if you open a checkbook wide, there's no guarantee that someone remembers the specifics of some kludgy system they worked on years ago. And if things are really snafu-d, there's no guarantee that even someone who does have domain knowledge can recover things.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#185

Post by alecbz » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

filleduchaos wrote: post #154

drclau wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really related to the subject of the article, but your comment reminds me of employers in Romania complaining they can't find people to hire, while they offer small salaries and people just leave the country for better paying jobs abroad. The solution to their problem is really simple: make better offers.

> The solution to their problem is really simple: make better offers. That's certainly a simple solution. The problem with simple solutions is that they are near guaranteed to not actually be feasible or realistic.

If it's literally this or the company folds, that seems realistic.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#186

Post by kolbe » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

NewLogic wrote: post #167

drclau wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really related to the subject of the article, but your comment reminds me of employers in Romania complaining they can't find people to hire, while they offer small salaries and people just leave the country for better paying jobs abroad. The solution to their problem is really simple: make better offers.

The exact same thing is happening in Australia in regards to farmers and fruit picking labour. With international borders shut they are unable to exploit foreign workers and complain that young adults are refusing to relocate for $5 an hour hard labour jobs.

Farming is low margin. Farmers don’t get to set the price of their products, and they aren’t handed billions in capital to burn through or 1000x multiples on their profit in the public markets. When most businesses say they can’t hire someone and the reason is because they don’t pay enough, the underlying cause of their low pay is usually because that’s what the company can afford.

Sure, farmers could pay $10/hr, but unless your Doritos were $10 a bag, they’d lose money.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#187

Post by garmaine » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

acjacobson wrote: post #126

Eremotherium wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Germany this goes both ways. The period can also be longer depending on your seniority. This is to give the company time to find a proper replacement for you and allow for a smoother handoff. Of course if both parties agree the grace period can be skipped or shortened. You usually don't get stuck with duds because there's a probationary period of (max.) 6 months in the beginning in which these protections…

There are certain things that you can outright be fired for - such as stealing, I believe. I think that showing up drunk for work might also be one of them?

Depends. Public employees in Bavaria are allowed to have up to 2 liters of beer for lunch. Is that drunk?

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#188

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #4

What exactly happens if you break a three month resignation period? I don’t advocate doing this in generally but as a hypothetical exercise if this person just stopped showing up for work, what exactly could the company do?

Depends on the contract and jurisdiction. I had one contract that stipulated a fixed penalty, which made any attempt of ignoring notice periods a calculated risk (the fine wasn't that steep). In any other case, in Germany, I would expect a law suite, incurring costs, stress and time, followed by some kind of agreement between the two parties. As an employee, you don't necessarily have the time nor the money (there's insurance for legal disputes like that so).

In that particular case, my experience tells me the guy won't get any credit for finding a solution, I would consider sick leave. Burnout, whatever. Doesn't have any monetary consequences in Europe (at least no harsh ones), and Germany covers up to 6 weeks of salary.

Any way, you can forget about getting goods references. Not that would get them anyway, with an employer like that.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#189

Post by psychlops » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

drclau wrote: post #132

tw04 wrote: post #88

I actually don't see any issue that isn't simply a matter of money. Everything they list that's an issue seems to revolve around the fact that the employees with domain knowledge for the system have left the company. Reach out to them and hire them on as contractors. If they left under bad terms because the business was a bunch of dicks, expect to pay 10x market rate. If this is truly "fix this or the business is out…

Not really related to the subject of the article, but your comment reminds me of employers in Romania complaining they can't find people to hire, while they offer small salaries and people just leave the country for better paying jobs abroad. The solution to their problem is really simple: make better offers.

You've just described the US H1-B visa program.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#190

Post by fogihujy » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #89

Tangent Alert! I have a 3 months resignation period, so I can't even leave... Maybe it's my (US) American experience, but being unable to quit a job strikes me as a terrible policy. This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Not that the A…

> This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)?

In theory, the business could sue an ex-employee who just left for damages caused by the breach of contract, but in the real world it would be pretty much impossible to prove that the damages were caused by the employee leaving. In most cases it's simply considered a dick move, and you'll end up with a hole in your CV as you won't ever get a decent reference if you just get up and leave.

> Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)?

Usually yes. And unlike the situation above, employees could probably drag the employer to court for it, unless the employee did something illegal or completely irresponsible during working hours.