The absolute worst scenario happened • Hacker News Board

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#121

Post by ACS_Solver » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #87

ACS_Solver wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfectly common in large parts of Europe. I also have a 3 months notice period, which is pretty much the standard here in Sweden for tech workers or other highly-qualified occupations. For very senior positions, 6 months isn't unheard of. It goes both ways of course, my employer is also bound by the 3 month period in case they want to fire me.

How does getting a new job work? You tell the new company that you have to give 3 months notice? That's some long term planning on the part of the hiring company.

Yes, but that's nothing unusual when the entire industry expects that. The last time I changed jobs, I signed a contract at the end of March, to start in August. That was the three month notice period plus most people are on vacation in July, so my new company would rather have me in August.

There are contractor agencies filling the niche of providing employees on short notice (and usually for a short period), but generally having people begin 3 months later is just something everyone expects and factors into their processes.

The average length of time people spend at a single job is also longer than in the US.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#122

Post by Nextgrid » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #104

tw04 wrote: post #88

I actually don't see any issue that isn't simply a matter of money. Everything they list that's an issue seems to revolve around the fact that the employees with domain knowledge for the system have left the company. Reach out to them and hire them on as contractors. If they left under bad terms because the business was a bunch of dicks, expect to pay 10x market rate. If this is truly "fix this or the business is out…

Yes. And after the boat is righted, fire every exec from IT Director upward through CEO. That last part may not be necessary though, as customers will jump ship and the company will probably sink anyway.

> customers will jump ship and the company will probably sink anyway.

Depends, they might have a captive market or a customer base that's non technical and doesn't understand how bad this is.

If their systems are like this, chances are their offering isn't anything groundbreaking and the competition already provides a better service for possibly even cheaper, so the customers who are willing to jump ship would've done so long ago and the fact they're still in business suggests they have a complacent customer base that's likely to stick to them even despite this incident.

The same reason this technical debt was left unchecked for ages applies to customers. The task of migrating to another provider will most likely rot forever in a Jira board somewhere and they will keep paying their bill in the meantime.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#123

Post by notyourday » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #108

tw04 wrote: post #88

I actually don't see any issue that isn't simply a matter of money. Everything they list that's an issue seems to revolve around the fact that the employees with domain knowledge for the system have left the company. Reach out to them and hire them on as contractors. If they left under bad terms because the business was a bunch of dicks, expect to pay 10x market rate. If this is truly "fix this or the business is out…

There's the possibility that those employees are happily retired and don't care. Or they're just not available in many ways. I know of a hospital which is still refusing to migrate off of a system which is not supported for a decade. Pay more money? 3 people worked on it: Adam had a stroke, Bob retired with enough money, Charlie left the country.

I bet if the hospital is to pay Bob/Charlie $1M for 6 months, post tax to fix it they would gladly do it. Note: this does not mean "We will pay you up to a million dollars, Net 90, after an invoice is approved and signed off by fifteen people". This means "We will wire a deposit of $250,000 today. The rest will be wired every month in 24 hours after an invoice is issued"

The reality is company execs like to talk about fixing problems with money but rarely are they actually willing to fix a problem with money. In my career I dealt with the exact three companies where execs decided to throw money at the problem bypassing all the fiefdoms and bureaucracies created to avoid rapidly solving problems using money in favor of slow moving, don't step on Jackson the IT manager's toes, approaches. All three solved their problems, destroying the local fiefdoms in a process.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#124

Post by rootusrootus » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #87

ACS_Solver wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfectly common in large parts of Europe. I also have a 3 months notice period, which is pretty much the standard here in Sweden for tech workers or other highly-qualified occupations. For very senior positions, 6 months isn't unheard of. It goes both ways of course, my employer is also bound by the 3 month period in case they want to fire me.

How does getting a new job work? You tell the new company that you have to give 3 months notice? That's some long term planning on the part of the hiring company.

Can't speak for Sweden, but we do pretty much exactly that with our India team. They have to give notice well in advance, and so when we hire a new team member we have to do so with the understanding that it will probably be a few months before they join the team.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#125

Post by munchbunny » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

paulz_ wrote: post #100

4e530344963049 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "firefighting" consultancy might be fun, no? And you would give people a lot of time off!

I've thought about that before. You get the call. "It's 30 minutes away. I'll be there in 10" If anyone happens to know of a career path or company that does that sort of work I would be interested to hear about it. Bonus points if the pay is half decent.

Blue teaming in big company cyber security teams will get that for you. Not everything is a true positive but it’s always urgent. Pay is decent too.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#126

Post by acjacobson » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

Eremotherium wrote: post #115

alistairSH wrote: post #89

Tangent Alert! I have a 3 months resignation period, so I can't even leave... Maybe it's my (US) American experience, but being unable to quit a job strikes me as a terrible policy. This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Not that the A…

At least in Germany this goes both ways. The period can also be longer depending on your seniority. This is to give the company time to find a proper replacement for you and allow for a smoother handoff. Of course if both parties agree the grace period can be skipped or shortened. You usually don't get stuck with duds because there's a probationary period of (max.) 6 months in the beginning in which these protections…

There are certain things that you can outright be fired for - such as stealing, I believe. I think that showing up drunk for work might also be one of them?

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#127

Post by ACS_Solver » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #118

ACS_Solver wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my EU-centric worldview, the US system of at-will employment, and of two-week notices as the standard courtesy, is crazy. Three months is the typical notice period for tech workers and other highly-skilled jobs. One month is the legal minimum in Sweden, and certainly several other countries. Of course it goes both ways, in fact it's even more difficult for the employer to get rid of an employee. An employee doesn'…

In my EU-centric worldview, the US system of at-will employment, and of two-week notices as the standard courtesy, is crazy. Oh, I agree. But 3 months seems crazy to me. If I have an open position and it isn't filled in ~4-6 weeks, it often gets given to some other team (on the basis that if I really needed that position filled, I'd do so). I can't plan hiring over that timeframe. And when hiring employees in India,…

> Oh, I agree. But 3 months seems crazy to me. If I have an open position and it isn't filled in ~4-6 weeks, it often gets given to some other team (on the basis that if I really needed that position filled, I'd do so). I can't plan hiring over that timeframe.

If you're in a culture (locality + industry) where a position can be filled in 4 weeks, that's one thing. If you're in a culture where every experienced person has 3 months of notice, then nobody would take your inability to fill a position within weeks to mean that you don't really need it.

I have some experience with part-time contracting with US customers. Seeing how quickly people can join or leave there is certainly a culture shock!

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#128

Post by insomniacity » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

paulz_ wrote: post #100

4e530344963049 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "firefighting" consultancy might be fun, no? And you would give people a lot of time off!

I've thought about that before. You get the call. "It's 30 minutes away. I'll be there in 10" If anyone happens to know of a career path or company that does that sort of work I would be interested to hear about it. Bonus points if the pay is half decent.

I know Mandiant do this (disaster response) for security incidents. Don't know of a generalised service, but I imagine the big consultancies offer it.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#129

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #89

Tangent Alert! I have a 3 months resignation period, so I can't even leave... Maybe it's my (US) American experience, but being unable to quit a job strikes me as a terrible policy. This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Not that the A…

I'm looking to leave my current job but if voluntarily leave in my first year I have to surrender my signing bonus.

It's certainly a crushing feeling to be chained to a job. Even worse are these stupid 2 weeks or unimaginable 3 months notice. As everyone says- you'll never get notice you're being fired. It'll be quick like a mob hit.

Re: The absolute worst scenario happened

#130

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

And that is why I choose to host "my company" at the big names: homepage directly with Wordpress instead of a smaller local provider, office directly with MS and so on.

Because, even there might be cheaper solutions, at least I can be sure to have a huge org in place to make sure stuff is up. And to find ways to get stuff back up and running in case something goes south. I value that peace of mind a lot.