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Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

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Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#621

Post by JohnBooty »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #8

I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally of…

Celebrating neurodiversity is crucial! It is in my view a very basic human rights issue.

However it does not, or at least should not, extend to excusing/permitting behaviors that hurt others.

Much human anguish and suffering could be alleviated if we had a greater understanding of one simple truth: "your rights end where mine begin."

On balance, I think RMS is ultimately a person who has greatly benefited the world. However, the stories of people made uncomfortable by his actions and statements are legion and in a more practical sense are detrimental to his cause. How can folks with with/under him when he's behaving in some of these ways? Why does the leader of the FSF even need to be broadcasting his beliefs that Minsky did nothing wrong when he had sex with a 17 year-old provided to him by a child trafficker?

As somebody who (like most folks on HN, probably) is not exactly "neurotypical", I realize that it's part of my responsibility to moderate my own words and actions if I want to take part in society.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#622

Post by anoonmoose »

fooker wrote: post #285
hda2 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he redact his statement or not? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

Yes or No answers are only relevant when you admit yourself to be incapable of nuanced thought. Alternatively : “Have you stopped beating your wife?” A simple yes or no answer will suffice. :)

Boo, word games. His question has a yes or no answer, yours does not.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#623

Post by hutzlibu »

h_anna_h wrote: post #620
hutzlibu wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that as a fact, or are you providing alternative facts based on what? I have not seen the sign in person, but been told by people that it was indeed there.

The source is https://whoisylvia.medium.com/richard-stallman-has-been-vili...

The source on that someone faked that door sign?

Because I do not see that in there.

edit: and the downvotes while still providing no source for alternative facts, just strenghten my image of the FSF and its followers as a quasireligious cult. And nothing I want to connect with, despite myself living and loving open source.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#624

Post by exikyut »

Aloha wrote: post #364
exikyut wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wh...a. Transitioning fixed your social cue perception?! That is incredibly fascinating. I'm not even sure how to classify that... pragmatic psychological function (oookay that's probably not a thing), neurobiology, or what else. IMO this is a gigantic breadcrumb for Something™. The question is what the axis point was, and what got fixed as a result. Cooool. I am very curious what else shifted that you'd be happy to…

Not the poster, but I too am curious about their thoughts, however I have some of my own. Men and Women experience socialization in fundamentally different ways, because of this I suspect the changing hormonal balance reawakens pathways not used normally, basically. In addition, you basically have a chance while transitioning to relearn socialization from scratch basically, with those new pathways awakened.

Hm, that honestly sounds about 90% of the way to a reasonable explanation.

In my own experience I've found as that as a majority of my own marbles have figured out "OH, that's which way is up", my own pragmatic learning capacity has transformed from "transmutation ray that turns everything into indecipherable, unmovable rubble" and... what almost feels like a happy grid of FPGAs that bustle about classifying and organizing without me really having to make much effort. After leaving ideas and subjects for long enough (10+ years in some cases) that old broken memories/associations have just about completely died out, yeah, I definitely can look at things with new eyes.

Discovering that HRT can trigger or you might even say accelerate this process is very fascinating, because it sort of maybe points in the direction of the root causes that break everything in the first place.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#625

Post by exikyut »

chousuke wrote: post #365
exikyut wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wh...a. Transitioning fixed your social cue perception?! That is incredibly fascinating. I'm not even sure how to classify that... pragmatic psychological function (oookay that's probably not a thing), neurobiology, or what else. IMO this is a gigantic breadcrumb for Something™. The question is what the axis point was, and what got fixed as a result. Cooool. I am very curious what else shifted that you'd be happy to…

Intuitively, it makes sense for something like this to be possible, though I wonder what the trigger is. Drastic change in hormonal balance caused by the transitioning process activating / connecting parts of the brain that were "malfunctioning" previously? Or "just" a result of increased happiness stemming from having dealt with a large problem?Sounds hideously difficult to replicate.

Oh yeah... the dismorphia effect and similar anxieties. Of course. Never experienced any of it myself, didn't realize how big of a potential factor it could be until reading your comment.

I was mostly considering the fact that the female hormone, uh, configuration is naturally pro-social, and that dumping that set of hormone balances on the brain promptly elicits the associated responses - ie, that the response (or rather the tendency for those responses to function properly) becomes a partial function of hormone state.

But those sort of general factors (including elevated mood) would definitely be a part of the end result.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#626

Post by adwn »

tw04 wrote: post #603
adwn wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is also illegal. Where? Even within the US, prostitution laws vary wildly. > And if you're having sex with a teenager for money, she probably has some pretty major life issues going on. Did Minsky know that they weren't adults? Do you have a source for that? > So... sex trafficking. By definition. Wrong. Not even by definition. If you disagree, show me a valid definition of sex trafficking that includes "flyi…

>Where? Even within the US, prostitution laws vary wildly. I guess it's fortunate we have that information: Minsky is from Massachusets: illegal. Guifreye and Epstein Florida: illegal. Little St. James: illegal. >Did Minsky know that they weren't adults? Do you have a source for that? You entirely missed the point. A 60 year old man sleeping with someone young enough to be his granddaughter is disgusting. Full stop.…

> You entirely missed the point. A 60 year old man sleeping with someone young enough to be his granddaughter is disgusting. Full stop.

You're moving the goal post. At first your claim was that Minsky should have known the women were coerced because otherwise they wouldn't have had sex with him. Now that I've refuted your claim, you shifted your position to, paraphrased, "he's a criminal because what he did offends my moral compass".

> It is LITERALLY the definition: the illegal business of recruiting, harboring, transporting, obtaining, or providing a person and especially a minor for the purpose of sex

That's not a valid definition of "sex trafficking", which requires an individual to be exploited and/or coerced to perform sexual acts. We don't know whether Minsky had reason to presume that the women were exploited and/or coerced, and we don't know whether Minsky had reason to presume that the women were minors.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#627

Post by mpweiher »

Chris2048 wrote: post #513
Bost wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time there was a dude with such an attitude and he became a president. Edit: And his story is not over yet. Apparently.

They tried to impeach him twice!

They did impeach him twice.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#628

Post by ertian »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #301
gruez wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and that [Marvin Minsky's] protection was itself part of the problem So if your friend was accused of heinous crime, the right thing to do is to distance yourself as far as possible?

If they actually did what they are accused of then, yes, you should probably rethink that friendship. There’s some value in loyalty, but I don’t see a reason why that should include culpable behavior.

Right...but in this specific case, Stallman was loyal because he didn't think his (at that point deceased) friend did it, and in the end he was right. So this seems like a good example of why it's appropriate to withhold judgement until the facts are in.

Also worth noting: Minsky was never actually accused of anything. His name came up in a case and the press & twitter hordes went on a rampage. That's what Stallman was reacting to. It really bothers me that the press outlets that went with "Famed AI Researcher Raped Children" aren't even being discussed, but the guy who said "Did he really, though? I think we should wait for more info" was (and still is) being dragged over the coals for it, even after he was vindicated.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#629

Post by koonsolo »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #427

Mob justice is not OK just because women do it. If these women have anything substantial they should make formal reports/complaints, not anonymous vogue statements like, "he make me feel uncomfortable". Cannot believe that one even has to say this. Why are women always presumed to be innocent and men always presumed to be guilty? Also, frankly, there is a point at which, certain behaviour might make you feel uncomfor…

> "he once hit on me and I had to reject him". The latter is perfectly normal behavior unless you propose we criminalize being a man.

If you are a superior to the person in question, I don't agree that it's normal behavior. In that case you put that person in a very tough position. Same for teacher/student.

That's also why a lot of companies have a policy against that. Notice how I didn't specify the genders, since it doesn't really matter.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#630

Post by omgJustTest »

cmeacham98 wrote: post #497
mustafa_pasi wrote: post #427

Mob justice is not OK just because women do it. If these women have anything substantial they should make formal reports/complaints, not anonymous vogue statements like, "he make me feel uncomfortable". Cannot believe that one even has to say this. Why are women always presumed to be innocent and men always presumed to be guilty? Also, frankly, there is a point at which, certain behaviour might make you feel uncomfor…

I don't see how this is relevant _at all_ to the linked article. You seem to be taking existing arguments that aren't even related to RMS's case and arguing against a strawman of an extreme version of them. No "mob justice" happened here. No women came forward and said RMS "hit on them" or whatever. RMS faced criticism for comments which justified rape and were close to victim blaming, and willingly resigned from his…

Perhaps they are giving you a bit of stallman-esk justice? Mincing the words was somewhat “the thing”.

It’s scary to have any of these conversations. They need to happen, we also need to recognize that this is a gray scale of human experience and that the response isn’t “fired or glorified”

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