Live data from Hacker News

Cancel We The Web? (2020)

wetheweb.org

171–180 of 280 posts

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how laughable, given wikipedia's heavy progressive bias. These people seek out and peddle victimhood as currency. Truly McArthy-esque, to see villains (in our times "oppressors") behind every shadow... Even manufactured self righteousness must be addictive.

> given wikipedia's heavy progressive bias. Do you have a robust academic citation for this? None of the sources here ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_bias_on_Wikipedi... ) suggest a heavy bias, and overall it seems that bias is attenuated with stronger participation. I haven't been able to find sources other than those linked.

No, not every conjecture has been researched. But if you're at all familiar with editorial policy on wikipedia, you'll know that only mainstream sources are typically treated as WP:reliablesource (e.g. wapo, huffpo, cnn, nbc, occasionally salon and vox tier) and the vast majority of right leaning sources (aside from fox) are effectively blacklisted. Not to mention the regular editorial bullying on politically sensitive pages that reinforces the bias by chasing away neutral or non-progressive leaning editors with alternative points of view.

Also if the allegation is that wikipedia has an editorial bias, I wouldn't necessarily trust wikipedia's own evaluation of it's bias.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#172

> Sarah Mei then went through the board members involved one by one, digging into each of their histories, and tweeting what she viewed as fire-worthy infractions. The crimes included: “being super involved with Wikipedia,” retweeting a “hideous” New York Times editorial, and being friendly with famed democracy activist and law professor Lawrence Lessig. Publicly calling out each board member in turn with a clear imp…

She spends a considerable fraction of her day turning non-issues (such as the term "domain driven design" [1]) into major issues. I really empathize with her coworkers; it must be really difficult to work with a person like this.

[1]: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1073234104311734273

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#173

I was canceled on Twitter last year. Hundreds of people were harassed for being associated with me, my social circles were ripped to shreds, and I feared for my safety. I got into right wing shitposting and logs from a small private chat group were leaked. It was one of the worst experiences of my life and I haven’t recovered. They feel like they’ve made the world a better place.

> I got into ...shitposting ... It was one of the worst experiences of my life and I haven’t recovered.

It sounds like you got your arse kicked for being a jerk. Oops.

There's a psychological model for this called DARVO, knowing about it might help you recover.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO

DARVO is an acronym for "deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender". It is a common manipulation strategy of psychological abusers.[1][2][3] The abuser denies the abuse ever took place, attacks the victim for attempting to hold the abuser accountable, and claims that they, the abuser, are actually the victim in the situation, thus reversing the reality of the victim and offender.[1][3] This usually involves not just "playing the victim" but also victim blaming.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toxic means dangerous.

"Toxic" does not mean "dangerous" in this context. The lingustic phenomenon is called polysemy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysemy It's like how when I "execute" a program, you understand that I am not killing the program as punishment. Even though the word "execute" has that meaning, it only applies in other contexts.

Toxicity is a serious thing. We label toxic chemicals with labels and warnings because they're dangerous. Serious business.

When we apply "toxic" to a person or his behaviour, we borrow that seriousness. That's why we choose that specific, strong words with a well-known meaning.

I oppose calling "I disagree with your world view" toxic. A serial killer might deserve the term.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is, and I'll quote the relevant part from Stallman's statement that is included in the article: "The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault” is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X... The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspeci…

It's interesting the degree to which people will claim his quotes were "taken out of context" or "mis-represented." Some of the quotes, I suppose you could be charitable and read them as more of a discussion of the logical flaws in language, but it many cases, as is the one above, the quote is so obviously, hilariously heinous, and the mentality behind it so obvious, it's hard to understand why people defend it. "It'…

I think the biggest conflict here is the fact that most people are not actual pedophiles or sexual assault defenders; however, many may have confused, internally inconsistent or overly simplistic views on those topics. To that end, I really think you need to put on a Stallman hat to understand his viewpoint. (Not that I’m not saying this is something you should wear normally, this is just an attempt to interpret his words in good faith.)

Seeing through those lenses, I think the point being made was that Stallman believes the situation was that Minsky was unwittingly approached by a girl who had been coerced by Epstein to present herself as being of the age of consent and genuinely interested in him, and he felt that the term "sexual assault" in this case was unfair as it projected the view that Minsky had done something coercive, similarly to how someone who buys something that was stolen is unknowingly "trafficking in stolen goods". His views on statutory rape are, IMO, fairly straightforwards: he clearly subscribes to the "if the law says it is legal tomorrow but not today there is something unsatisfying about its definition" viewpoint.

Now, these viewpoints have multiple issues, the largest of which is probably that one is supposed to do due diligence in their choice of partners to ensure that they are what they seem and not underage or being coerced, especially if one is a 73-year-old man with a woman half a century younger. And the reason we have a specific age set in law is that otherwise we would have to do exceptionally difficult value judgements on whether a person is mature enough to provide consent. But I think both of these are just the failings of a rational person to make sense of the world, rather than the rants of a deranged and actively malicious lunatic as most people (including you) claim.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#176
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, she is the character that needs to be ignored. That's the proper way to deal with trolls - not feeding them, not fighting them but starving them of attention they so desperately crave.

This is why you should just ignore “people on Twitter.” People like this only have power if you pay attention to them. I’m not on Twitter and have never been. People could be “canceling” me there right now and I’d have no idea, and it wouldn’t affect me in the slightest. We give people power by paying undue attention to them.

either the reason is weak, or you're just not important enough to cancel.

cancel culture is not just mean comment. Affecting real life in every possible way is also one of its goal. Its basically modern day witch hunt. No way ignoring Twitter gonna solve that problem

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#177
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Good times breed weak [humans]” But I see it differently. I feel the wolves are in sheep’s skin, and are trying to convince me the sheep are wolves.

I'm always curious about this line of thinking. What exactly do you think people are gaining by - say - denouncing sexism or other kinds of awful behavior? What's so wolfish about that?

They improve their social status, which potentially makes them more powerful and influential within their tribe.

Unfortunately this can be entirely orthogonal to making genuine improvements in how humans relate to each other.

You're dealing with some deep seated flaws in human social psychology, and the polarised morality of cancel culture doesn't leave room to explore potential solutions which are based on that uncomfortable truth.

You're either an insider who agrees with The Cause or an outsider unbeliever who must be reeducated or destroyed.

This can feel great for participants, in a slightly manic way. But there's no space for a more nuanced view, and that makes stable solutions unlikely.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting the degree to which people will claim his quotes were "taken out of context" or "mis-represented." Some of the quotes, I suppose you could be charitable and read them as more of a discussion of the logical flaws in language, but it many cases, as is the one above, the quote is so obviously, hilariously heinous, and the mentality behind it so obvious, it's hard to understand why people defend it. "It'…

I think the biggest conflict here is the fact that most people are not actual pedophiles or sexual assault defenders; however, many may have confused, internally inconsistent or overly simplistic views on those topics. To that end, I really think you need to put on a Stallman hat to understand his viewpoint. (Not that I’m not saying this is something you should wear normally, this is just an attempt to interpret his…

His argument wasn't difficult to understand, and I accepted it in good faith.

He believed the term "sexual assault" should be reserved for those cases where content was affirmatively withdrawn, and physical violence was used.

He believed that the broadening of term would lead people to believe someone accused of "sexual assault" was guilty of the most morally reprehensible version of the crime imaginable (formal withdrawal of consent combined with physical force).

In this specific case, he believed that his friend hadn't committed "sexual assault", under his preferred definition, and found it more plausible that his friend thought the victim was willing, or was lead to believe she was.

It's a pedantic defense.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Toxic" does not mean "dangerous" in this context. The lingustic phenomenon is called polysemy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysemy It's like how when I "execute" a program, you understand that I am not killing the program as punishment. Even though the word "execute" has that meaning, it only applies in other contexts.

Toxicity is a serious thing. We label toxic chemicals with labels and warnings because they're dangerous. Serious business. When we apply "toxic" to a person or his behaviour, we borrow that seriousness. That's why we choose that specific, strong words with a well-known meaning. I oppose calling "I disagree with your world view" toxic. A serial killer might deserve the term.

>When we apply "toxic" to a person or his behaviour, we borrow that seriousness.

what makes you think so?

words means in theirs contextes whatever people attributed to them, and I've never seen toxic used in other context than somebody trashtalking somebody and being called toxic, so definitely not dangerous.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in the OSS community can, at times, glorify toxic behavior. I wouldn't go so far as to glorify toxic behaviour, but some of what is seen as toxic by some is IMO just frankness or a tactic to bring the conversation back into a realm of technical discussion.

In my experience, people who have technical discussions are often blind to their own emotions and the effect that their words have on the people around them. In good this can be solved. In bad cases, people talk about "discussing technical issues" and "directness" as a shield for their poor behavior. An example from real life: A student, Y, was having a problem with her CS lab assignment, and talked to her professor,…

on the other hand the Prof gave to student one of the best lessons, the lesson of life

Kinda kidding, but the faster you learn how to handle critics, the better for you.

Post reply on HN