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Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

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Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#331

Post by fastball »

phreack wrote: post #327

This is a controversial opinion, but I believe someone who turns any space he's in into an unsafe place for women should not be leading the FSF. No matter who or their accomplishments. I never saw him being kicked out as unfounded, there were years and years of people being solicited sexually even after explicit non-consent by this man. He just seems to be unwilling to be professional towards women.

Wait what? I haven't heard these allegations and a quick check of Wikipedia didn't surface anything either.

Citation?

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#332

Post by seba_dos1 »

ruined wrote: post #37
henriquez wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is analogous to saying “all autistic people are the same” which is itself very offensive.

show me where i said that. autistic people are not uniquely malevolent, and it is not offensive to suggest autistic people are not uniquely malevolent. the premise at the root of the thread was that autistic people can't tell bad ideas from good ideas, and should thus go forever uncriticized. both in that it's wrong, and in that it casts autistic people as corruptible and dangerous, when we know very well most "norma…

> was that autistic people can't tell bad ideas from good ideas

They can tell that. Sometimes maybe even better than others.

What they can't do well is navigate across social clues that others pick up instinctively. That aren't explicitly spoken.

It's not about considering them harmful or not, it's not whether they should be forgiven or not. It's about understanding. An autistic person behaves in a way that you interpret as "being an asshole" not because they can't tell whether they're being an asshole - it's because they think in a different way and their reasoning makes perfect sense for them and doesn't make them seem like an asshole. You lack that reasoning, so you misinterpret their intentions.

The point is to understand why someone may act in the way they do, instead of assuming that they would act in the same way you would.

For instance, something that you would say just out of politeness can be interpreted by an autistic person very literally. When you ask "would you like to make me a tea?", expect "no" to be a totally polite and honest answer. That's literally what you asked about.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#333

Post by wozer »

young_unixer wrote: post #145
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #8

I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally of…

I don't even think we should be "advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people". We should just stop using our prejudice to misinterpret statements, and we should stop putting words in other people's mouths. Autistic people (who usually talk in a very literal way) would be benefited by this change as a byproduct, but this principle should apply to everyone, not only to neurodivergent people. Is what the person s…

Unfortunately, that doesn't work either, because there are some neurotypical people who have mastered the art to say technically correct things but implying different, often awful things.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#334

Post by dehrmann »

dralley wrote: post #65

IMO, Stallman is a good philosophical leader, but a terrible organizational leader. "On the board" is a decent compromise. But he has been a huge contributor to GNU's decent into irrelevance in recent years. As an organization, they're perpetually stuck in the 1990s.

> he has been a huge contributor to GNU's decent into irrelevance in recent years. As an organization, they're perpetually stuck in the 1990s.

I agree, but this reason, alone, is enough for him to be off the board. Maybe his time has passed, maybe free software has grown into something larger than he has vision for, maybe it grew in a way incompatible with his vision.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#335

Post by f1refly »

mdoms wrote: post #135
konjin wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can embrace acceptance that people are different and realize that differences make some people better and worse for certain things. I find it astonishing that blatant abelism like yours is acceptable in polite society. >You can embrace acceptance that genders are different and realize that differences make some genders better and worse for certain things. >You can embrace acceptance that races are different and…

Is it ableist to suggest that blind people don't make good air traffic controllers, that paralysed people don't make the best bicycle couriers or that a deaf person is perhaps not a suitable music critic? Everyone works within the limitations of our abilities, and some people are dealt difficult hands - but reality doesn't care about your feelings.

You should try to convince people Beethoven's music sucks because he was deaf. There's really no reason a deaf person can't be great with music.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#336

Post by skissane »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #322
skissane wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What counts as "neurodivergent"? Just ASD? What about other psychiatric diagnoses? A lot of "non-autistic assholes" may have other diagnosable conditions, for example narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) or antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). Are NPD or ASPD "neurodiverse" or "neurodivergent"? They are probably partially genetic, just as ASD is probably partially genetic.

Other commonly classified neurodivergent diagnoses are ADHD and OCD (which along with ASD commonly overlap). They don’t have much overlap with personality disorders (which do have a lot of overlap among that category).

> Other commonly classified neurodivergent diagnoses are ADHD and OCD (which along with ASD commonly overlap)

What makes those diagnoses "neurodivergent" and the others not? Why aren't other diagnoses "neurodivergent" too? How exactly do we define "neurodivergent"? (And why is that the right definition to use?)

> They don’t have much overlap with personality disorders (which do have a lot of overlap among that category).

There is a lot of overlap between the disruptive behaviour disorders (DBDs) – oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) and conduct disorder (CD) – and ADHD; so much so that ADHD is sometimes considered a DBD along with ODD and CD. And there is a clear connection between CD in children and adolescents and ASPD in adults – indeed, a child or adolescent with CD can follow one of two trajectories, either their conduct problems resolve with maturity and they become law-abiding pro-social adults, or else the child/adolescent diagnosis of CD evolves into the adult diagnosis of ASPD. So there is definitely a connection between ASPD and ADHD. A child with ADHD (even without comorbid CD) has an increased risk of developing ASPD as an adult – https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24284138/

Some researchers consider ASPD to be a neurodevelopmental disorder – https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29401045/ – which is the same category that ASD and ADHD (and sometimes also OCD) are put in.

There is also a lot of overlap between ADHD and BPD (Borderline personality disorder) – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4739390/

There's also overlap between ASD and BPD – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590952/

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#337

Post by sterlind »

Aloha wrote: post #330
nostrademons wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

It's like this, I've spent a lifetime learning a rulebook by trial and error that everyone else just seems to know . It's absolutely maddening when the rules suddenly change for no discernible reason, often with little warning and grave consequences with no second chances for screwing it up. I see people clamoring for a safe spaces and I wonder where I can find such a thing? (To an extent I can find one at sci-fi, an…

I relate because I've been there, I think. Before I transitioned I had pretty strong ASD and couldn't figure out how to answer simple questions like "what's up?" or if I should wave to someone I've met twice if they're 15 feet away walking towards me.

Transitioning did something to my brain chemistry and let me read social cues nearly overnight, but I got friends by delving into the LGBT community. Maybe furry cons is a good approach?

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#338

Post by teddyh »

jolux wrote: post #71
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t look like it did. Looks like another case of cancel culture and nobody reading what he actually said.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/09/richard-stallman...

https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#339

Post by Aloha »

sterlind wrote: post #337
Aloha wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like this, I've spent a lifetime learning a rulebook by trial and error that everyone else just seems to know . It's absolutely maddening when the rules suddenly change for no discernible reason, often with little warning and grave consequences with no second chances for screwing it up. I see people clamoring for a safe spaces and I wonder where I can find such a thing? (To an extent I can find one at sci-fi, an…

I relate because I've been there, I think. Before I transitioned I had pretty strong ASD and couldn't figure out how to answer simple questions like "what's up?" or if I should wave to someone I've met twice if they're 15 feet away walking towards me. Transitioning did something to my brain chemistry and let me read social cues nearly overnight, but I got friends by delving into the LGBT community. Maybe furry cons i…

I'm pretty sure you'd find yourself at home there, we also have a large trans/gender non-conforming contingent in the community.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#340

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

nostrademons wrote: post #41
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #8

I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally of…

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

It’s been going on for a while already.

Some years ago there was a case where a woman in Melbourne called out a man for harassing her on public transport. Turns out he was autistic and was outgoing to everyone. His friend had to post on Facebook to stop people sharing a video of the autistic man.

Helen Pluckrose also posted on Twitter a similar story. A man she would help checkin on because he was autistic would get complaints from women for harassment. It was a suggestion from his therapist to help him socialise.

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