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Why use old computers and operating systems?

john.ankarstrom.se

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Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#121

Post by dazzawazza »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #39

> imagine if spreadsheet programs like Microsoft Excel stopped being developed and eventually just disappeared – that’s the level of significance that HyperCard had. I often hear similar claims about the significance of HyperCard. But if HyperCard was so significant to so many people, wouldn’t it have been ported and/or rewritten over the years to still be available today? Even if not by Apple, then by someone else?…

One of the downsides of hypercard was that there were many XCMDs that were buggy, poorly written and became unmaintained. You could create a stack and send it to people and it would hang their machine. If not immediately an OS update came and bang! Often solving that issue was too much for the average user. It languished as Apple languished and people moved on.

Hypercard was amazing in it's prime, so it's place in history is assured. Many people who were not "programmers" were tricked in to being programmers on a 30MHz machine! They created amazing products. It also influenced the development of Netscape and the way Javascript treated events/actions (attaching actions to buttons for example as opposed to a buttons sending events in to an event loop).

It's also one of the finest examples of a domain specific language empowering a normal user to do more. It's powerful but uses human concepts. Something we seem to have forgotten completely with our obsession in integrating Javascript, Python or Lua in to everything and then blaming users for not being empowered.

There is still a lot to (re)learn from these technologies.

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#122

Post by herbst »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #50
hx2a wrote: post #13

A reason to use old computers that I don't see mentioned here has to do with accessibility. People in the US usually have current hardware such as the latest Mac laptop, but that is not the case in all other countries. Current hardware is a bit of a luxury that we don't fully appreciate. I have an open source project with global users, and one person in Mexico contacted me looking for help. He was trying to create 3D…

Related to this: one of the very few good reasons to offer unencrypted HTTP is that in some parts of the world, old devices are in widespread use, and support for modern HTTPS cannot be taken for granted.

Honestly never considered that. Thanks

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#123

Post by Veen »

HenryBemis wrote: post #119
emteycz wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think tech people should get their funds together and uplift everyone on the planet. Today we have modern speedy hardware that is just as cheap... And it would add huge demand to software.

Even if we give everyone a $1000 laptop, we will create the following pitfalls: -people don't know how to use them (and I mean even all the people living in the EU know how to use a desktop/laptop - and I don't mean just the old) -people that are not educated will start clicking left right and center, their computers will be infested/compromised in one day, good luck supporting them. If you don't support them, you ju…

Plus, if you give them a $1000 laptop, they'll sell it, buy a cheap phone, and use the remainder to buy something that serves a more pressing need.

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#124

Post by jstanley »

BallyBrain wrote: post #45
jstanley wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That looks great, I'd love to have a play with one. I wonder what's the easiest way to get one, perhaps a modern replica? It almost looks like it might be possible to implement as a PDF that you just have to print on some card and cut out?

Enjoy! https://www.instructables.com/CARDIAC-CARDboard-Illustrative...

Perfect! Thanks a lot.

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#125

Post by implements »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #81
heavyset_go wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And older phones might have certificate stores that can't be upgraded and have already expired.

It’s kinda annoying that I can barely use my 2013 iPad Mini because of this kind of issue, even though I absolutely love that thing (I even used it as my primary smartphone using voip for a few years!).

I have the same problem with a BlackBerry Playbook tablet - great form factor but it doesn’t handle websites using modern SSL.

I believe you can work around this using another machine as an SSL proxy - though setting that up is beyond my ability. Perhaps someone else can elaborate?

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#126

Post by Wowfunhappy »

implements wrote: post #125
IggleSniggle wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s kinda annoying that I can barely use my 2013 iPad Mini because of this kind of issue, even though I absolutely love that thing (I even used it as my primary smartphone using voip for a few years!).

I have the same problem with a BlackBerry Playbook tablet - great form factor but it doesn’t handle websites using modern SSL. I believe you can work around this using another machine as an SSL proxy - though setting that up is beyond my ability. Perhaps someone else can elaborate?

Indeed, proxies can work around the problem. I made this for Macs, but you could run it on a Mac and connect from a Playbook, or set up Squid yourself on a Raspberry Pi. https://jonathanalland.com/legacy-mac-proxy.html

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#127

Post by dudeinjapan »

frabert wrote: post #109
dudeinjapan wrote: post #101

At Brown U.'s semiconductor fab cleanroom we had a Windows 3.1 PC controlling our plasma etching machine. One day we opened up its case--not a speck of visible dust despite operating continuously since the early 90's!

Isn't that expected, given it was operating in a cleanroom?

Sure, but still surprising on some level.

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#128

Post by implements »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #126
implements wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same problem with a BlackBerry Playbook tablet - great form factor but it doesn’t handle websites using modern SSL. I believe you can work around this using another machine as an SSL proxy - though setting that up is beyond my ability. Perhaps someone else can elaborate?

Indeed, proxies can work around the problem. I made this for Macs, but you could run it on a Mac and connect from a Playbook, or set up Squid yourself on a Raspberry Pi. https://jonathanalland.com/legacy-mac-proxy.html

I’ve used Squid as a filtering proxy in the past. Unfortunately, I don’t have a Mac, but this:

https://dev.to/suntong/squid-proxy-and-ssl-interception-1oa4

- looks like it might be a useful guide for setting it up as an SSL proxy.

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#129

Post by silvestrov »

marbletiles wrote: post #64
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #39

> imagine if spreadsheet programs like Microsoft Excel stopped being developed and eventually just disappeared – that’s the level of significance that HyperCard had. I often hear similar claims about the significance of HyperCard. But if HyperCard was so significant to so many people, wouldn’t it have been ported and/or rewritten over the years to still be available today? Even if not by Apple, then by someone else?…

HyperCard is like Concorde: it was replaced by less powerful alternatives (eg PowerPoint) that took away any hope of mass success and left the remaining audience too small to be viable. That's why later successors like LiveCode have to aim themselves at niches of the original HyperCard audience, like those who want an easy dev tool. Which is nice, but misses the tool-for-everyone dream of the original

PowerPoint is the 25%.

The other 75% was Netscape Navigator as

1) distributing info on the web is so much better than on floppies. If you were not in the loop, it was very difficult to get hold of interesting Hypercard stacks.

2) Hypercard was fixed-screen-size, whereas web used whatever screen size you had.

3) The web was cross-platform and in color. Hypercard was mac only and b/w only.

Re: Why use old computers and operating systems?

#130

Post by kaladin_1 »

Veen wrote: post #123
HenryBemis wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we give everyone a $1000 laptop, we will create the following pitfalls: -people don't know how to use them (and I mean even all the people living in the EU know how to use a desktop/laptop - and I don't mean just the old) -people that are not educated will start clicking left right and center, their computers will be infested/compromised in one day, good luck supporting them. If you don't support them, you ju…

Plus, if you give them a $1000 laptop, they'll sell it, buy a cheap phone, and use the remainder to buy something that serves a more pressing need.

Hahahaha, I like this response. High-end gadget is not their need. They have more pressing issues, like hunger, no water and even power.
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