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Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

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Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#111

Post by heavyset_go »

jojobas wrote: post #92
heavyset_go wrote: post #17

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) The fact that Apple refuses to implement basic features in mobile Safari that Firefox and Chrome have had for years now, and the fact that they refuse to allow other browser engines on iOS is the reason why we can't have nice things like progressive web apps. I recently worked on a heal…

The answer is to make the nice things and force Apple to implement them lest its user feel left behind.

I agree with the sentiment, but the real result of that would have sick people punished for the wrong choice of phone.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#112

Post by paulmd »

CameronNemo wrote: post #41
Nextgrid wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "useful"? I've been using Safari exclusively for years now and the lack of push notifications hasn't been a problem. It's actually good because it shields me from all kinds of shitty websites demanding notification permissions while having no good reason to send any.

Why are we optimizing the case of users browsing bad websites? Why not cater to good websites instead? Isn't a notification receiver of the most important uses of a phone?

> Why are we optimizing the case of users browsing bad websites? Why not cater to good websites instead?

I would say it's not so much optimizing for good websites vs bad websites, as optimizing for real-world websites.

Real-world websites are overwhelmingly shitty, push dark patterns, invade users' privacy, abuse any APIs they are given access to, etc. Limiting the amount of things they can do is an enhancement to the user experience, even if it's worse for you as a dev.

It's a lot like having to have laws. Why do we have to have laws, isn't that "optimizing for bad people" instead of maximizing the freedom of good people?

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#113

Post by mortenjorck »

ArchOversight wrote: post #91
saurik wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: you would--at worst--be asked more often than you would like to approve notifications for random websites, all of which you would click no on; this feature doesn't just magically cause notifications... hell: it already even exists on desktop Safari and I just click "no".

Yeah, having to click no all the time on desktop Safari is terrible. Also websites have realized that I am going to click No in the browser, so now they popup first asking if I want to allow push notifications in JavaScript so when I click no, they can ask me again later, vs if they popped up the browser and got a "No" there they could never ask me again.

I agree about clicking no all the time. This isn't an intractable problem, though; people just assume the ask-on-visit interaction pattern is the only way to implement this kind of functionality.

If I were on the Mobile Safari team, I'd propose bundling notifications into the bookmark workflow. If a user chooses to bookmark a site, prompt them at that moment (as an option in the modal) to subscribe to notifications if the site offers it. Because the user is expressing an interest in returning to the site, it's now appropriate to ask them to enable notifications, versus their first visit.

(For sites accessed through a synced iCloud bookmark, however, I would show a notifications prompt for the first visit on that device.)

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#114

Post by EvilEy3 »

phantomathkg wrote: post #94
Spartan-S63 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should a web browser be able to send notifications? Why are we overloading web browsers to do more and more things? I get that transferring data over the internet is king, but surely we can devise better user interfaces than bloated browsers, etc?

Why not? Why must an app be written natively?

Because it offers superior experience.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#115

Post by imron »

heavyset_go wrote: post #68
sp332 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polling, long-polling, websockets? I feel like I'm missing some context here.

The Push API allows for efficient push notifications without polling, I believe, but don't quote me on it. The problem is displaying notifications like you would a message notification on iOS.

> The problem is displaying notifications like you would a message notification on iOS.

As an iPhone user, this being difficult for developers is a highly desirable feature!

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#116

Post by hyko »

bleachedsleet wrote: post #37

I love Safari as a browser, but I hate the fact that it neuters the web and makes it feel much less powerful. Web Bluetooth and webUSB are ignored by Safari and unsupported. Notification support is lacking last I checked. No PWA functionality to speak of and webNFC won’t be added. Extensions are lacking largely due to being basically native apps that bring with them all the cost and overhead of being such. As a brows…

Web Bluetooth and webUSB

Hard to tell without looking if these things are real or a parody!

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#117

Post by EvilEy3 »

meibo wrote: post #19
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #5

This is why, despite it being monopolistic, I hope Apple can continue their requirement on using Safari's rendering engine on iOS. It's the sole remaining defense against a far worse monopoly. Neither the Mozilla nor Edge teams have the backbone to resist Google's web platform initiatives.

"Not following sensible standards to protect your own App Store monopoly and being a pain in the ass to work with due to rendering differences that all other browsers get right(even Firefox)" is not a good base to build a defense against a monopoly on.

Being asshole for the sake of keeping a far worse asshole from being in total power is.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#118

Post by imiric »

Pxtl wrote: post #24

What about Edge? I found Firefox unusable on my phone - prone to crashing and a bit slow. Meanwhile, Edge for Android includes some of the privacy and Adblocking features of FF but still uses the Chromium renderer so it doesn't sacrifice performance. I'm very happy with it. On desktop I'm all FF, of course.

If you're on Android, give Bromite a try. It's a Chromium fork with privacy and adblocking features and good performance.

Firefox Klar/Focus also isn't bad, if you don't mind losing some of the functionality of the full version.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#119

Post by EvilEy3 »

olliej wrote: post #52
adrr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People choose to install chrome it doesn't come with Windows Machines or Macs yet is a very popular CHOICE of browser. IOS we have no choice and forced to to use Safari.

you mean safari - a minority browser on a minority platform - is a monopoly? There's a browser that has almost absolute domination of the market, chooses what features become standards simply by shipping them, is aggressively anti-competitive, and yet you're complaining about safari?

Apple platform is anything but minority.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#120

Post by onion2k »

Google234 wrote: post #95
heavyset_go wrote: post #17

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) The fact that Apple refuses to implement basic features in mobile Safari that Firefox and Chrome have had for years now, and the fact that they refuse to allow other browser engines on iOS is the reason why we can't have nice things like progressive web apps. I recently worked on a heal…

I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone. Sites abuses this and are always asking on my computer and it’s too easy to accidentally say accept.

The default setting for notifications in Chrome is "Sites can ask to send notifications", but you can set that to false in "Preferences > Privacy and security > Site settings > Notifications" and you'll never see the browser popup again.

This is a feature that Chrome has had for about 6 years. The fact you haven't discovered it shows Chrome's UX could be better, but the fact you haven't searched for it might alsp show that the popups aren't quite such a problem for you after all.

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