Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

utcc.utoronto.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 329 posts

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#71

Post by NegativeLatency »

heavyset_go wrote: post #42
chrisseaton wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the entire point of progressive web apps that they’re tolerant of different features being available or not? That’s ‘progressive enhancement’. Your app is supposed to work if the functionality isn’t there, or equally if it’s there but denied access. You can have it show updates when the user checks the app if that’s what they want. Complaining a browser doesn’t support a progressive feature is a contradiction i…

It works, but users don't get the notifications they sign up for and expect without using a native app on iOS.

As an iOS user I generally don’t want notifications from apps

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#72

Post by heavyset_go »

3np wrote: post #61
heavyset_go wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this specific use case, it's missing the Web Push API[1], which can be used to implement push notifications, and the Web Notification API[2], which can also be used for the same thing. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Push_API [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...

Maybe your app is a rare exception, but apart from chat apps, any use of notifications I’ve seen are undesirable and abused to spam users. Even those that do have a legit use-case still abuse it by pushing non-desirable (from user perspective) messages. I think apart from Gitter I’ve never wanted a notification, as a user.

This app helps sick patients navigate the healthcare system. Notifications were requested by users so that they don't need to continuously go back to the web app to see if there are any updates.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#73

Post by fragile_frogs »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #34
fragile_frogs wrote: post #33

> Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it. How is Safari not implementing standards seen as a good thing? While I do acknowledge that there might be privacy concerns when it comes to Chrome, I do appreciate that Google is trying to push the Web forward, while Apple is trying to hold the Web back. Safari truly is the worst browser,…

> How is Safari not implementing standards seen as a good thing? One, “feature” isn’t the same as a standard. And two, standards aren’t standard. They’re adopted through a dubious process and then ignored by the most powerful companies.

> And two, standards aren’t standard. They’re adopted through a dubious process and then ignored by the most powerful companies.

Apple is really the only one these days ignoring these standards. Even if it a "dubious process", if there is consensus among the majority browser vendors I would call it standard.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#74

Post by ocdtrekkie »

hyperrail wrote: post #59
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edge is now a Chromium fork, and is headed by an ex-Googler who cheerfully me-toos every Google web agenda. It's sole purpose is to be a Chrome browser that connects to Microsoft accounts and hence can integrate with Microsoft's enterprise tools. Despite enterprise teams already finding Chrome's six week release cycle tedious, Microsoft immediately followed Chrome to announcing their four week cycle in the last week,…

The Edge team - first engineering alone, now both eng. and product - has been led for 3 years by Rajesh Sundaram, a Microsoft lifer who has never worked for Google. [1] And Chromium-based Edge has tracking prevention through filter lists, while Chrome does not. [2] Microsoft is no one's privacy hero these days, I will concede that. But some of these specific claims are just wrong. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/raje…

Your [1] is apparently not public or "does not exist". It's possible I was confused by Microsoft's horrible titling scheme, as I would assume a guy who goes by "Principal Program Manager, Microsoft Edge", Eric Lawrence, is well-placed in the org, especially since he's quoted in every major article around every new Edge news: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18527550/microsoft-chromiu...

It is true Microsoft ported some of it's tracking prevention features over to Chromium Edge, but it certainly isn't a step above or beyond Firefox or Safari, and it's frustrating Microsoft continues to follow Google in places reasonable companies should not go.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#75

Post by heavyset_go »

3np wrote: post #62
heavyset_go wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works, but users don't get the notifications they sign up for and expect without using a native app on iOS.

Apart from chat, what are use-cases where users actually want notifications, as opposed to being coerced or tricked into accepting them?

The app helps sick patients navigate the healthcare system. Users get notifications like "Your prescriptions are ready for pickup" or "Your prescriptions are scheduled for delivery at 5PM", and it's a user requested feature.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#76

Post by fragile_frogs »

olliej wrote: post #53
CameronNemo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we optimizing the case of users browsing bad websites? Why not cater to good websites instead? Isn't a notification receiver of the most important uses of a phone?

web pages aren't something users want notifications from. Mozilla literally studied this and essentially 100% of "let us spam you" requests were denied.

> web pages aren't something users want notifications from.

I agree users don't want notifications from web pages, but the web is much more then just web pages and I would argue that on web applications users are much more likely to allow push notifications if they get a clear benefit.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#77

Post by asaddhamani »

heavyset_go wrote: post #72
3np wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe your app is a rare exception, but apart from chat apps, any use of notifications I’ve seen are undesirable and abused to spam users. Even those that do have a legit use-case still abuse it by pushing non-desirable (from user perspective) messages. I think apart from Gitter I’ve never wanted a notification, as a user.

This app helps sick patients navigate the healthcare system. Notifications were requested by users so that they don't need to continuously go back to the web app to see if there are any updates.

How about sending notifications over email?

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#78

Post by ksec »

olliej wrote: post #50
fragile_frogs wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web Push Notifications, ShardeWorker, BroadcastChannel. Native Add to Homescreen, Good Developer tools to debug things on a non Apple computer, Background Sync, Notification Badging API, App Shortcuts These are only the ones that I remember right now, but I know there is more

web push notifications, notification badging, shared worker, etc are user hostile features. They burn battery life, the former two exist almost solely to spam users (Mozilla did a study and it turns out no one wants notifications from random websites). Safari has had add to home screen for the best part of a decade. Giving web pages the ability to spam users to add it is an anti feature.

How about Web Push Notifications that only works in sort of a PWA mode once it is added to Home Screen?

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#79

Post by ksec »

bleachedsleet wrote: post #37

I love Safari as a browser, but I hate the fact that it neuters the web and makes it feel much less powerful. Web Bluetooth and webUSB are ignored by Safari and unsupported. Notification support is lacking last I checked. No PWA functionality to speak of and webNFC won’t be added. Extensions are lacking largely due to being basically native apps that bring with them all the cost and overhead of being such. As a brows…

>to exist in their own little world.

Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#80

Post by diebeforei485 »

nexuist wrote: post #65
heavyset_go wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a mobile and desktop Firefox user, and Firefox has supported the features that are missing from iOS Safari like the Web Notifications API since 2013, and the Web Push API since January 2016.

iOS dev since 2014 here. So many of my app ideas would have been completed 2-5x quicker if mobile Safari supported push notifications. It is unreasonable gatekeeping.

It is very reasonable gatekeeping. People would be inundated with notifications on their phones.
Post reply on HN