Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web • Hacker News Board

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#221

Post by nicoburns » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

mankyd wrote: post #213

QuercusMax wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs, and that way all the information will flow into the system the same way: digitally. It's 2021. Why are we still talking about paper forms for government functions?

>In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury. > Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs That isn't true. A very significant portion of the population needs help with these systems. Hell, I had to order a hamb…

> Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury.

We could set it up so that everybody does. Public libraries have traditionally been great at this, although they could certainly do with more funding.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#222

Post by macintux » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

grumple wrote: post #210

~17 years ago when I was in high school, my senior project was teaching old folks how to use computers. It was much harder than I expected. Clicking a mouse was something they just didn't understand - they used their whole hand! Had to get them to use just a finger. Many other concepts were difficult to convey as well. I think things have changed a lot since then (we have drastically better widespread tech literacy n…

I taught a computer lab at a local university a few years before that and discovered through one unhappy encounter with an angry student a key attribute that I’d failed to apprehend previously.

This student wanted to know exactly what to do when he encountered an error. I showed him my thought process for how I’d work my way back to a good known state and he was enraged.

Computer literacy is in no small part a willingness to experiment and be unafraid of what can happen (or at least enough basic knowledge to know how to avoid the really sharp edges that can in fact cause harm).

It’s a very difficult thing to teach.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#223

Post by cestith » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #203

neurostimulant wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the goal for the prison system is to rehabilitate the inmates, then indeed it failed him. But if the goal of the prison system is to punish the inmates, then it has achieved its goal and even continue to punish him long after he served his time.

The problem is of course that you want both. First you want to punish them so they, and others, are not motivated to do such a crime again. But at the same time, you want them to go out as a better person than they went in (else there is no point in releasing them). Punishing people after their release is not benefitting anyone.

Ideally you want to lower recidivism. Giving people who were stealing or dealing drugs a reasonable chance of making a good living in a legal way reduces recidivism. Getting people with unstable homes and unstable lives counseling and training reduces recidivism. Helping them get jobs reduces recidivism. The state really has little to gain from punishment. There's keeping people who are a risk off the streets on one hand. There's rehabilitation and changing the circumstances of the offenders.

The interest in punishment is from politicians who want to appear "tough on crime" to their electorate. Those policies aren't tough on crime, though. They're tough on criminals in all the ways that lead to more crime in the end.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#224

Post by macintux » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #188

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some version of this meme[0] has been circulating since before memes were a thing. I remember the Public School IT guy cracking a joke about packing heat in case the copier tried something funny (which sets a lower bound for the age of this joke because you haven't been able to pack heat in a school in three decades and haven't been able to crack that joke in a school in two). [0] https://i.imgur.com/6wbgy2L.jpeg

I'm about to wire up some doorbells in our house and my wife can't for the life of her understand why we didn't simply buy, "one of those wireless ones." It's because the wired ones just work and always will just work and never don't work. No batteries. No internet. No computer chips. Etc, etc.

One cloud-based solution for opening garage doors, myQ, was offline for a few hours recently. People on Twitter were claiming, in all apparent sincerity, they had to literally break into their own homes.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#225

Post by anonymousiam » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

kyooyk wrote: post #113

I really think the point is not how long it might take someone to learn how to use tools, but the impacts of prison. I work with these folks through my company to help them become employed upon release. A few things, it is astounding but believable that when people are released they enter a world that is entirely unknown to them. Not only technology but their relationships and neighborhoods are completely different.…

I've never served time, but from what I understand, the burdens associated with being on parole (check ins, drug tests, danger of associating with the wrong people, etc.) are so onerous that many prefer to serve the full sentence so that when they get out, they are not on parole.

I would probably make the same choice.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#226

Post by slantyyz » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

fuball63 wrote: post #80

I'm sure many people here have experienced frustration helping older relatives or friends use computers. Recently though, I realized, that computers are just way too hard to use. In our pursuit to avoid cryptic black screens with command prompts, a user must now understand that their computer has Windows with all of its menus and functions, a browser window with all of its menus and functions, running a webapp, with…

Imagine being an 80+ senior who doesn't have a computer or Internet and being told that the only way to register for a COVID vaccine is online. That's how our initial rollout was handled (Ontario, Canada).

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#227

Post by cestith » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

pradn wrote: post #162

I remember my grandfather asking me why the newspaper website went down when he pressed the up button and up when he pressed the down button. I had no answer. And it was the only thing keeping him not bored as he spent a year in American suburbs, away from the warmth of whole community he's lived with all his life. It's hard for us realize all the random things we've learned over the years to live in the digital era.

I'm guessing this was on a Mac. Apple calls it "Natural scroll direction". If so, go to the Apple menu -> System Preferences -> Mouse and uncheck the box labeled "scroll direction: Natural".

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#228

Post by slantyyz » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

orblivion wrote: post #209

fuball63 wrote: post #80

I'm sure many people here have experienced frustration helping older relatives or friends use computers. Recently though, I realized, that computers are just way too hard to use. In our pursuit to avoid cryptic black screens with command prompts, a user must now understand that their computer has Windows with all of its menus and functions, a browser window with all of its menus and functions, running a webapp, with…

I feel like someone should try to start from scratch and design a phone interface that any elderly person would be perfectly comfortable using and understanding. And then sell it to the rest of us as well.

I can't emphasize how much this needs to be done (granted, the population in the age group that needs it the most is shrinking).

The current seniors phone are utter crap. I've tried a bunch for my dad.

My dad, 80+, can't figure out how to use a feature phone (I got him a Nokia handset) much less a smartphone (have tried iPhone and Android).

The thing is, he has no desire to read a menu, or figure out what an icon means, or what the text under the icon says. He can't even be bothered trying to understand up, down, left, right and OK in terms of navigating a phone's capabilities.

What he does know how to use is a land line. He's got a Northern Telecom phone with some pre-programmed numbers, and he seems to have no problem with that at all. He doesn't know how to do voice mail on his phone, but he does know how to use an old school answering machine.

If someone can make a phone that behaves more like a traditional phone (i.e., maybe a lid flips so that it's like lifting a phone off the hook, close the lid to hang up), and no send/cancel buttons, I think my dad would be able to figure it out more easily.

On a separate note, the reasons above are the same reasons why he can't use a media player on a TV. He only knows the concept of sticking physical media into a player, and using the standard media buttons, and for the TV, he is used to punching in numbers to change the channel.

Menu navigation, which is easy for most people under 60, is SO foreign to him.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#229

Post by trhway » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #157

alibarber wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the case for other embassies of other nations too (I am an expat). But I do get the feeling that if you have moved to another country then you probably are more able to access services online (buying the ticket to get there in the first place is a start) than some 90 year old 'back home' who's never left the village. I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizens…

Landing in another country is one of the scenarios where you're most likely to be unable to access telecommunications. For example, you find your internet provider doesn't work internationally, you can't enable roaming without visiting their website, your phone isn't compatible with the local spectrum, your credit card gets fraud-flagged when you try to buy a local sim card because you forgot to tell Visa you'd be tr…

Exactly. Otherwise what is the point of having an embassy if everything is to be done only online :)

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#230

Post by kayfox » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

kyooyk wrote: post #113

I really think the point is not how long it might take someone to learn how to use tools, but the impacts of prison. I work with these folks through my company to help them become employed upon release. A few things, it is astounding but believable that when people are released they enter a world that is entirely unknown to them. Not only technology but their relationships and neighborhoods are completely different.…

The two prison reforms I want to see the most:

1. Education programs that actually mean something and actually are adequately funded.

2. Retaining prison work, but requiring that prisoners who are not paid minimum wage where they are be paid the difference on release. (The Federal government may need to make this a protected fund or trust to make sure its not use as a fund to raid by lower governments and administrators.)