Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland • Hacker News Board

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#221

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

mrkramer wrote: post #219

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Kosovar familiarity with German is something that dates from the era of Yugoslavia, it has little to do with corporate sway in the modern EU. Yugoslavia 1) allowed its people to freely work in the West, and many people chose to go to West Germany, and 2) Yugoslavia built up extensive tourist infrastructure in Croatia and Montenegro that drew predominantly German-speaking holidaymakers (and no…

As far as I know the history of my country Croatia familiarity with Germanic nations dates from Habsburg Monarchy[1] meaning 300+ years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg_Monarchy

In Hapsburg times, only a fairly small elite outside of Austria knew German. Most people in the Empire knew only their own language (or sometimes e.g. their own language and some degree of Hungarian). It wasn’t until after the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that the average person – due to modern state-schooling curricula, business contacts with German speakers, or going to work in Germany – began to know German.

There is quite a body of scholarship on the sociolinguistics of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, if you are curious.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#222

Post by rory » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #24

m12k wrote: post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

So Saudi Arabia, UAE, Canada and Saudi Arabia are 'stuck' selling natural resources? I think it's probably a much better plant to extract a good deal of wealth from the natural resource and invest it in other areas of higher value creation, even in the same vertical. There's a good chance that Ghana's policies are needlessly constrained. More obviously there are 100 things Ghana could do to improve living conditions…

Maybe the government is trying to pressure Swiss companies up the value chain to move processing operations to Ghana? That seems like a reasonable way to increase income to Ghanaians and build local human capital, without having to start industry from scratch.

I don't know the fine details of how chocolate is made, but a chocolate bar seems like a fairly straightforward industrial product. Why should it be made in somewhere as high-cost as Switzerland, if not just because of operational and brand-value momentum?

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#223

Post by solidsnack9000 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

In the long run, it wouldn't make sense for so much finished chocolate to be from places like France and Switzerland, where cocoa doesn't grow.

There is a parallel with tea. At one time, people thought in terms of "English tea" or "French tea". In recent decades, western people are much more acquainted with Japanese and Chinese tea directly. It is no coincidence that this stuff is fresher, more varied, more affordable...

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#224

Post by pydry » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #201

pydry wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is effectively how the US built up the industries of Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. The reason these countries were allowed to do it where others are not was because the US wanted strategically placed powerful allies in the region. There probably wouldn't be a Japanese electronics/car industry, for instance, if the Soviets hadn't spooked the the US in the 40s.

The US built those industries only in the same sense that they built Germany's. Japan's industrial base was built before the 40s, with an extensive domestic supply of machine tools and industrial equipment, rail infrastructure, and finished manufactured goods. Or else who do you think was building the planes, ships, and submarines that the allies were fighting on the Pacific front? Their industries were temporarily d…

They weren't building walkmans or cars for export.

Their skill base was intact but their industry was razed by WW2.

Either way they needed raw materials and markets to develop their industrial base and that required favorable American trade policy, $$$ and military support.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#225

Post by mrkramer » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #221

mrkramer wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know the history of my country Croatia familiarity with Germanic nations dates from Habsburg Monarchy[1] meaning 300+ years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg_Monarchy

In Hapsburg times, only a fairly small elite outside of Austria knew German. Most people in the Empire knew only their own language (or sometimes e.g. their own language and some degree of Hungarian). It wasn’t until after the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that the average person – due to modern state-schooling curricula, business contacts with German speakers, or going to work in Germany – began to know German…

Public/state workers had to know German, military personnel had to know German and as the education system was building in Habsburg Monarchy and Austro-Hungarian Empire children and university students were learning German. There are more than 2000 German words in Croatian language today dating back from Habsburg Monarchy and Austro-Hungarian Empire.

You don't build a bond with some nation and culture over the course of one century it takes more than that. For example like you probably know Ottoman Empire was ruling and controlling south-east Europe for 500 years and impact of that is very much visible and present today.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#226

Post by rory » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

1MachineElf wrote: post #193

Having worked in Whole Foods and been surrounded by family who prefer organic, free/fair type foods, I must say I do understand there is a market for the chocolates we usually see marketed as non-European. There's an emphasis on dark chocolate, "artisanal blends" with spices, etc. The kind of chocolate people pay extra for because they think it's special, then don't touch because they paid extra for and want to prese…

Hey I actually like that dark, spiced chocolate! I'm also skeptical it's any more expensive than the Swiss chocolate sold in gaudy mall stores like Lindt and Teuscher.

There's obviously a market for these sort of "non-European-style" chocolates, which, as you said, are marketed specifically as being associated with countries like Ghana. In NE Asia there's actually a chocolate bar just called Ghana (made in Japan..)! So why shouldn't Ghana try to capture more of the value of that market? I'm sure Swiss chocolate makers can source their cocoa elsewhere, and milk chocolate needs far less actual cocoa anyway.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#227

Post by Nimitz14 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

audunw wrote: post #119

killtimeatwork wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's where China was smart I guess. They didn't sign any treaty which forced them into free trade or IP protection, but instead slowly allowed their industries to build up via IP theft and strong protectionism. Now they have giant companies on par with the West's. Whereas everyone who joined the EU in the decade of 2000 (and the Washington Consensus before that in the nineties) is now a pawn of the Western capital…

I really think China is making a huge mistake actually. See how TSMC (Taiwan) and Samsung are free to buy ASMLs EUV machines, while China is blocked. Part of that is due to their rampant IP theft. Why sell machines to China if they're just going to copy them? China also messed up big time by enforcing their 1 child policy, and taking so long to open up and industrialize. They're far behind economically compared to wh…

Uuh have you not heard of xiaomi or oneplus? They're already creating high value goods.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#228

Post by AdrianB1 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #27

m12k wrote: post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

> So the book argues that when developing countries are pressured into free trade agreements This should have been obvious since the Opium Wars and the Opening of Japan (see Commodore Matthew Perry). All developed countries are pro free trade for markets where they are strong and fiercely protectionist where they are not (or they consider those markets strategic priorities). I'm from Romania. Romania joined the EU in…

In 2002-2005 I worked with all the supermarket and hypermarket chains in Romania, I still have a couple of friends in CxO positions in the top 5 companies; you are missing the full picture on what happened there, but the story is too long for a comment here; the 2007 change had zero impact of what already happened in the early 2000s.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#229

Post by Shadonototro » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #199

Shadonototro wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they'll move production elsewhere, problem solved why people do not think nowadays?

I'm no expert, but there are articles from many different sources saying that the transition will result in a crisis, and will take a long time to resolve.

i doubt it, they anticipated that many years ago, they only import 1/3 from ghana, easy to replace

source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/E...

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#230

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

mrkramer wrote: post #225

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Hapsburg times, only a fairly small elite outside of Austria knew German. Most people in the Empire knew only their own language (or sometimes e.g. their own language and some degree of Hungarian). It wasn’t until after the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that the average person – due to modern state-schooling curricula, business contacts with German speakers, or going to work in Germany – began to know German…

Public/state workers had to know German, military personnel had to know German and as the education system was building in Habsburg Monarchy and Austro-Hungarian Empire children and university students were learning German. There are more than 2000 German words in Croatian language today dating back from Habsburg Monarchy and Austro-Hungarian Empire. You don't build a bond with some nation and culture over the course…

Public/state workers and university students were a small elite until the 20th century, as were schoolchildren until a fairly late date. Also, the demographics you speak of were males, meaning that you are leaving out a half of the population.

Certainly German words in Croatian testify to contacts at some level of the population. Romanian, too, abounds in German words in some domains, for example, but this doesn’t mean the average Romanian would have been able to speak any German. But in Croatia knowledge of German varied greatly from the country’s northwest to its south. Again, the sociolinguistics of the Austro-Hungarian Empire are well-described.