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Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

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Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#131

Post by frosted-flakes »

drewzero1 wrote: post #121
sunir wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine you do understand the advantage of 30 seconds of time from anywhere in the world versus a 20-60min round trip to the bank. I imagine there are other reasons you value than time and space convenience. Why do you feel the physical trip is more valuable?

Not OP, but my bank keeps pushing me to get their app to deposit checks. My phone doesn't do apps and I don't feel like taking up space on my tablet. Besides, there's a branch with a drive-through three minutes away from my house and another one a block away from work, so it's not that much time or travel and I get to talk to somebody outside of home or work for a few minutes. (Even if some of that time is spent decl…

Wait, your bank's drive-through is staffed? Every drive-through at a bank I've seen is just an ATM.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#132

Post by Verdex »

alenmilk wrote: post #120
Verdex wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is true. But I personally like having paper that the corporation printed out versus something that I printed out. Like, technically, you can fake the "receipt" page because it's just some html etc. The only thing that proves that what you have is real is the confirmation number and suddenly you're back to hoping that the corporation that asserts you owe them money has and will provide all of their sql data…

One possibility is signed PDF's. You can verify that the corporation created the document, that it has not been changed. That is more security than a piece of paper. You can forge a document.

It's not really compelling to a jury though. Digital signature verification is just a magical computer saying something that the expert witness fails to explain very well.

Meanwhile, the jury can look at 200 bill receipts and see the age of the paper for themselves. Like, yeah it could be faked, but it means they were planning on faking something for 20 years.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#133

Post by alibarber »

TrueGeek wrote: post #114
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government services are available offline or via phone as well. The government has some of the strictest accessibility requirements for everything they do. It’s one of the reasons that it’s so expensive to roll out new government services. People are directed to the online versions first because it’s fastest for everyone involved. We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first, while leaving…

> Government services are available offline or via phone as well The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country. You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments mu…

This seems to be the case for other embassies of other nations too (I am an expat). But I do get the feeling that if you have moved to another country then you probably are more able to access services online (buying the ticket to get there in the first place is a start) than some 90 year old 'back home' who's never left the village.

I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizenship issues always are) so having someone competent to talk to on the phone is necessary.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#134

Post by zwischenzug »

I wrote a similar thread a while back while helping my 70-year old neighbour:

https://twitter.com/ianmiell/status/1299742361854054401

"""One example of the insanity:

"Enter mobile number to register" OK, 0793...

"You already have an account with that number"

"Enter mobile number to get recovery details" OK, 0793...

"You do not have an account with that number"

Turns out you have to put 44793..."""

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#135

Post by skeeter2020 »

ballenf wrote: post #48

Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assume or require digital adoption. I think this has two big benefits: - Minor point: Greater resilience to downtime, interruptions to service - Major point: a check on becoming a faceless entity with no exposure to the public. Think Google or FB if you get flagge…

Well the problem with this in Canada is that it's not a binary decision between paper forms from an office and submitting a web form; there are a bunch of in-between technologies that also need to be supported: fax machines, order paper forms via an automated telephone system, file by phone, fill out a PDF, print and mail - how do you decide when you can phase out any or all of these?

Also counter-intuitively, a physical office you can visit or phone number where you're on hold for an hour plus, and need to access between 9am-4pm, M-F could actually be less accessible for a huge portion of society compared to 24/7 web forms. If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that?

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#136

Post by 123jay7 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #57
matz1 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how do you check your balance or transaction ? you only do that over the phone ?

I check the balance when I'm getting cash from an ATM. Transaction logs are sent by mail or I can print them at service machines. Really people, it's not that complicated, it worked before online banking was invented after all ;) I'm not sure if all those services (like the physical mail thing) are available to new customers though, I think those are nudged heavily to use an online account.

I think when the world is trying to be more green-friendly ,you are creating unnessarity trips and waste.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#137

Post by skeeter2020 »

TrueGeek wrote: post #114
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government services are available offline or via phone as well. The government has some of the strictest accessibility requirements for everything they do. It’s one of the reasons that it’s so expensive to roll out new government services. People are directed to the online versions first because it’s fastest for everyone involved. We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first, while leaving…

> Government services are available offline or via phone as well The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country. You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments mu…

The probably don't accept telegrams either. Maybe email is now easier/quicker/more cost effective than processing letter mail?

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#138

Post by ectopod »

Verdex wrote: post #74
ballenf wrote: post #48

Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assume or require digital adoption. I think this has two big benefits: - Minor point: Greater resilience to downtime, interruptions to service - Major point: a check on becoming a faceless entity with no exposure to the public. Think Google or FB if you get flagge…

I think it makes accountability easier as well. And this is actually the reason why I don't do online billing as much as possible. A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than: Me: your honor, I swear I paid them Corp: our computer thingy says you didn't. also it's a tangle of 50 different sql da…

In the UK hundreds of postmasters were accused of stealing by the Post Office because their accounting system couldn't add up†. Many lost their jobs. Some were jailed. It took twenty years for the management to admit that their system was broken.

I work in software and I do not trust it. Like you, I get paper bills. Where that's not an option I keep my own records.

† https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_(IT_system)

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#139

Post by mankyd »

alpaca128 wrote: post #127
mankyd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first I was with you until that statement. If we push online, self-service first , then the offline, in person services will languish. This is what OP was driving at. Establish effective offline services _first_, with the intention of online, self-service, and you will end up in a place that better serves everyone.

A few months ago I had to go fetch a simple registration form. Usually a matter of like 15 minutes at rush hour. Due to the pandemic, they had strict rules and required me to first book an appointment one week later for a specific time slot. Reserving that time slot was only possible via phone call. So I basically had to wait a full week for a one-page printout with a stamp on it. Should this be possible offline? Yes…

I am not suggesting that online, self-serve shouldn't exist. I am not even suggesting that we shouldn't encourage them. I am merely pointing out that we can't implement those _first_ at what will inevitably be the expense of in-person services where needed.

Develop the paper forms. Figure out what needs an gov't employee or other official to help with the necessary steps. _Then_ offer complementary self-serve options that can streamline the process.

Re: Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web

#140

Post by vsareto »

Farbklex wrote: post #7

In contrast, I am sure we all know some older people who were not in prisson for the past 30 years and still don't know how to write an email, what a zoom call is or when it's appropriate to double-click vs single click items on a computer. I know people in their 50s who pretend that "they don't need this technology" or "I can just go to the bank if I need something". Sure, if you're in your 80s you might want to dod…

>Rant: If you are not an IT person and need to work with Excel and PowerPoint for the next 20 years then ffs sit down and learn the in-depth tools and tricks in the tools over the span of two weekends.

Until the IT people decide to change technologies on you because we do it so often to ourselves.

Except Excel. I'm pretty sure that's immortal.

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