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The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

strongtowns.org

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Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#51

Post by DrScump »

axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

This isn't a new concept, even in the USA. SV residents can see this (ground floor retail, upstairs residential) embodied in the Two Worlds complex in Mountain View, which is at least 30 years old.

Problem is, retail space demand is in a death spiral as shopping moves to the online giants. People shift to using local retailers primarily for looking, trying on, or stealing from.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#52

Post by amanaplanacanal »

m463 wrote: post #46
seibelj wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s an episode of econtalk where the guest worked at Walmart and described his experiences https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/ Worth a listen if you want a counter point to the “wal mart is evil” trope.

To be clear, I was more making a point about market forces more than "walmart is evil" (although they are a ruthlessly efficient distribution system) I know walmart is bigger, but I wonder if (when?) amazon's market cap will surpass it. I don't know if walmart can transition if that's the endgame. Will they transition to online like netflix, or blockbuster?

They already compete with Amazon online, but I don’t know how much of their sales occurs there vs in-person

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#53

Post by dagw »

Guest42 wrote: post #16
jcims wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rude. It's a valid perspective. I dumped thousands of dollars in arcade games in the 70's and 80's and spent at least as much buying tshirts and toys and pizza or walking down to the theater and watching a movie.

For me there was a sense of adventure going to the mall because the products would change unpredictably. It was like a living art piece that served great food and could lead to unexpected purchases. It was also fun in the pre-internet era of having the chance to run into someone you knew randomly whereas social media creates a seemingly constant contact.

For many it was also the only place around where parents/adults would be happy to let kids hang out completely unattended.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#54

Post by jcims »

noobermin wrote: post #47
jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? You're already failing with this logic.

I wouldn’t say downtown is formally defined but it does carry some connotation. Where is the failure?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#55

Post by jhbadger »

enriquto wrote: post #38
jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? I had a hard time understanding the meaning of this sentence, and its context. The idea of "driving downtown to go shopping" is backwards to me. You live downtown, and walk a few meters to the shop. Then I realized that you may be from the USA, where your cities seem to be turned inside out. You are indeed a funny country.

People do live downtown in US cities, but at least since the 1990s when that became popular again after city crime rates fell (for reasons which are still being debated today), these housing options (generally condominiums and rowhouses) tend to be very expensive compared to living in the suburbs. So only the upper middle class/upper class can afford it. It's not that unlike the situation in other countries. Living in the center of London or Paris isn't cheap either.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#56

Post by the_only_law »

cgriswald wrote: post #26
jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

I recently ordered something from Newegg and it was shipped from China to some place 500 miles away from me. They don’t even charge me... the seller does. They only guarantee. So if the seller doesn’t refund me then I have to file a claim through them. Screw that. My Amazon orders have dropped precipitously and I’m trying to get my girlfriend to stop ordering from there as well. I’ve gotten too many obvious someone-e…

> I recently ordered something from Newegg and it was shipped from China to some place 500 miles away from me.

This just recently happened to me. Ordered from a 3rd party on Newegg. It ended up getting delivered somewhere in Wichita, Kansas. I live in Florida.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#57

Post by jcims »

m463 wrote: post #30
jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

> when you could download your entire Amazon order history You could do that? And now you can't? (otoh maybe I don't want to know)

Yeah it was just a link in the search results of the order history page.

Technically you can still get the data but it’s through a manual request process.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#58

Post by jcims »

enriquto wrote: post #38
jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? I had a hard time understanding the meaning of this sentence, and its context. The idea of "driving downtown to go shopping" is backwards to me. You live downtown, and walk a few meters to the shop. Then I realized that you may be from the USA, where your cities seem to be turned inside out. You are indeed a funny country.

How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk?

That’s incredible! The mall near me that has all of that requires a few thousand meters of storefronts in 5-6 buildings just to pack all of that in.

Where is this place?

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#59

Post by prepend »

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #29
prepend wrote: post #2

Is it fair to compare value and tax revenue of the 9 downtown blocks to the mall? Aren’t malls usually built in cheap areas because the land has low value, while downtown is typically, well, down town. Also the mall space is including parking lots and the 9 blocks have parking somewhere but not in those 9 blocks.

But the whole business model of the mall is not viable without the parking lot, so I think it makes sense to include the parking lot in the analysis.

Yes, that is true. I’m not contending that parking lots aren’t required for malls to work. I just think it’s comparing different densities of commercial areas.

It doesn’t factor in the parking lots needed to support the 9 blocks of downtown.

So the level of spatial resolution seems off to make an accurate comparison.

It seems to me the point was “downtown shopping is better for tax base than malls” and shows the tax for those two areas. But my not including the parking needed for downtown those aren’t really comparable areas in that there is additional space needed to support the downtown area.

But the bigger area is comparing downtown to whatever land was turned into a mall since I’m not aware of any malls that were literally used to replace town squares. In the small to middle towns I’m familiar with the mall was built away from the center of town frequently on farmland or similar empty space.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#60

Post by enriquto »

jcims wrote: post #58
enriquto wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? I had a hard time understanding the meaning of this sentence, and its context. The idea of "driving downtown to go shopping" is backwards to me. You live downtown, and walk a few meters to the shop. Then I realized that you may be from the USA, where your cities seem to be turned inside out. You are indeed a funny country.

How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? That’s incredible! The mall near me that has all of that requires a few thousand me…

> How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk?

Exactly. Most small towns in the suburbs of Paris are just like that if you live within 1km of the center.

EDIT: It's nothing particular to France either. If you go to any city with more than, say, 20.000 or 30.000 inhabitants in western Europe (at least the countries that I know), it will be quite similar.

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