The reason the local mall is failing (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#21

Post by pm90 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:03 AM UTC

lurquer wrote: post #4

Having lived through the peak of the US Mall years, I blame the downfall on... Nintendo. The mall was a social center for teens. A lot of money got pumped into the malls from that age group. Teen boys would go for the arcade. Teen girls would follow, checking out the guys. Many stores catered to that demographic (Spencers, HotTopic, makeup and cheap jewelry stores, etc.) In short, it was a place to go on casual dates…

US malls could have innovated. Internet cafes are immensely popular in South Korea. Malls just really weren’t that agile.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#22

Post by nitrogen » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

freeone3000 wrote: post #19

axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

Having residential above retail is super common in non-American cities. It works pretty well in Montreal -- condo buildings usually have a grocery store and coffee shop in the lobby, while a strip of three-story buildings might have two stories of residential above things like a collectibles store or a martial arts dojo, with a grocery store on the corner. The problem with doing this with malls is you have minimum qu…

The American Dream(TM)

If I could have a condo that was as quiet and accessible as a house (buying groceries, whether in person or by delivery, was a huge hassle in my SF apartment), with a "backyard" I could reserve for an hour or two of total quiet and privacy, I'd take that over a detached house. But my experience so far in two separate tower buildings was noise, a lack of mutual respect in amenity spaces, frequently breaking elevators, and overcrowding.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#23

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

freeone3000 wrote: post #19

axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

Having residential above retail is super common in non-American cities. It works pretty well in Montreal -- condo buildings usually have a grocery store and coffee shop in the lobby, while a strip of three-story buildings might have two stories of residential above things like a collectibles store or a martial arts dojo, with a grocery store on the corner. The problem with doing this with malls is you have minimum qu…

> Daylight requirements are a particular concern -- you can sell corners and edges, but you're left with a big space in the middle you can't use, unless you're willing to make the corner apartments expand that far.

Or, since you're talking about the top floor, use skylights. You could even make it the top two floors, but each center unit is on both floors and has a "basement" without natural light.

> Once you start doing that, the condo costs comparable to detached houses, and there you lose out to The American Dream(TM).

Prices are set by supply and demand. If people like something else better then the price is lower. It's hardly going to be lower than the construction cost.

The real thing preventing things like this is that it's all too often prohibited by zoning for no good reason.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#24

Post by cratermoon » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:11 AM UTC

freeone3000 wrote: post #19

axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

Having residential above retail is super common in non-American cities. It works pretty well in Montreal -- condo buildings usually have a grocery store and coffee shop in the lobby, while a strip of three-story buildings might have two stories of residential above things like a collectibles store or a martial arts dojo, with a grocery store on the corner. The problem with doing this with malls is you have minimum qu…

It's becoming more common in the US, and at least a few cities now have zoning laws requiring multi-purpose buildings in certain situations. There have been some significant redevelopments of the sort you talk about. They aren't the old style large malls with anchor stores, but are typically laid our like an apartment building or hotel, to maximize the window areas.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#25

Post by jancsika » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

> One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos.

I found this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/americas-first-shopping-mall...

Here, it appears people were grasping at straws to save a historically important building situated in a fairly convenient spot of a decent size city. So somebody invested $10 million to do this renovation, creating a whopping 48 apartments, many of which are 225 square feet!

Change the configuration file to location=outskirts and mall=half_abandoned_piece_of_shit and I shudder thinking of the business model that would support this at scale.

Whatever that would be, Cinnabon seems about the right smell for it.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#26

Post by cgriswald » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:36 AM UTC

jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

I recently ordered something from Newegg and it was shipped from China to some place 500 miles away from me. They don’t even charge me... the seller does. They only guarantee. So if the seller doesn’t refund me then I have to file a claim through them. Screw that.

My Amazon orders have dropped precipitously and I’m trying to get my girlfriend to stop ordering from there as well. I’ve gotten too many obvious someone-else’s-returns and fake items. Amazon has always been mostly okay with returns. (Once they wanted to charge me for a low value item I had them reship when their system said it was delivered but it wasn’t, but otherwise refunds and returns have been no problem.)

I find myself going to brick-and-mortar stores more often lately, especially since they seem to have gotten curbside pickup down. Otherwise o tend to go straight to the manufacturer when possible.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#27

Post by schaefer » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #24

freeone3000 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having residential above retail is super common in non-American cities. It works pretty well in Montreal -- condo buildings usually have a grocery store and coffee shop in the lobby, while a strip of three-story buildings might have two stories of residential above things like a collectibles store or a martial arts dojo, with a grocery store on the corner. The problem with doing this with malls is you have minimum qu…

It's becoming more common in the US, and at least a few cities now have zoning laws requiring multi-purpose buildings in certain situations. There have been some significant redevelopments of the sort you talk about. They aren't the old style large malls with anchor stores, but are typically laid our like an apartment building or hotel, to maximize the window areas.

I’m really interested in reading more, do you know what cities have required multi zone use???

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#28

Post by jaspax » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

... most malls have only one floor (albeit one with a very high ceiling). Certainly the mall that the original article is talking about has only one floor (source: I lived near the city discussed by the author and know the mall he's talking about). You can't convert the top floor of a one-story building.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#29

Post by bostonvaulter2 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

prepend wrote: post #2

Is it fair to compare value and tax revenue of the 9 downtown blocks to the mall? Aren’t malls usually built in cheap areas because the land has low value, while downtown is typically, well, down town. Also the mall space is including parking lots and the 9 blocks have parking somewhere but not in those 9 blocks.

But the whole business model of the mall is not viable without the parking lot, so I think it makes sense to include the parking lot in the analysis.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#30

Post by m463 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 5:58 AM UTC

jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

> when you could download your entire Amazon order history

You could do that?

And now you can't?

(otoh maybe I don't want to know)