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The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

strongtowns.org

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Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#41

Post by batekush »

stormbrew wrote: post #35
jimbob45 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to Wal-Mart, that seems to have less to do with Wal-Mart being a devious corporation and more that the lower class can scarcely afford to live anymore without the ultra-efficient economies of scale Wal-Mart provides. In a world with a livable minimum wage, I imagine Wal-Mart would have less of a captive consumer base.

I mean, part of why that is the case is that walmart itself depresses wages. It comes to town, undercuts other businesses, those businesses close, people need jobs, they go to work at walmart (possibly at a loss of income but probably a loss of hours even if not), and then they can't afford to shop anywhere but walmart anymore. And the cycle continues. It's not like they're doing this in a snidely whiplash scheme-y s…

I don’t know, I think the decision to pay workers in literal company scrip had some mustache-twirling behind it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/mexico-walmex-idUSN054659132...

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#42

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

stormbrew wrote: post #35
jimbob45 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to Wal-Mart, that seems to have less to do with Wal-Mart being a devious corporation and more that the lower class can scarcely afford to live anymore without the ultra-efficient economies of scale Wal-Mart provides. In a world with a livable minimum wage, I imagine Wal-Mart would have less of a captive consumer base.

I mean, part of why that is the case is that walmart itself depresses wages. It comes to town, undercuts other businesses, those businesses close, people need jobs, they go to work at walmart (possibly at a loss of income but probably a loss of hours even if not), and then they can't afford to shop anywhere but walmart anymore. And the cycle continues. It's not like they're doing this in a snidely whiplash scheme-y s…

As someone who makes more than enough money to not have to shop at Walmart, I still shop at Walmart. Even brand name food items will be 20% cheaper than most grocery stores (Aldi's excluded). And meat is just incredibly cheap, $1.78/lb for boneless chicken breast? Yea, I'm gonna keep shopping at Walmart.

Just because I have money to burn doesn't mean I want to burn it overpaying for basic things.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#43

Post by deanak »

seibelj wrote: post #34
m463 wrote: post #32

I think this is obvious if you watch the walmart movie[1] There was an interesting scene in the movie where a small town was getting a new walmart, and they drove around downtown. They pointed at each of the stores and assigned values like "6 months" or "3 months" as an estimate of survival after they lost all their business to walmart. Another wave of change has been moving in slow motion for years with online purch…

Here’s an episode of econtalk where the guest worked at Walmart and described his experiences https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/ Worth a listen if you want a counter point to the “wal mart is evil” trope.

Walmart purposefully designs their pay structure to externalize their labor costs to taxpayers.[1] They have gladly led the way in lobbying for offshoring manufacturing jobs.[2] They do everything they can to avoid paying taxes and bust unions.[3][4]

They will burn a small town's economy to the ground so they can turn a profit selling goods produced in sweatshops and labor camps. If that's not evil, I'm not sure what would qualify.

[1] https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-21-45.pdf

[2] https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Walmart#Walmart_is_a_D...

[3] https://qz.com/1701404/walmart-allegedly-created-fictitious-...

[4] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/union-walmart-shut-5-stores-ove...

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#44

Post by cycomanic »

I think this is a very US perspective. In the town where I grew up in Germany they created a pedestrian zone downtown when I was a teenager. There was a lot of protests from businesses saying that people would drive to malls in the outskirts because they can't drive to the shops anymore. The exact opposite happened, if you look at the city centre it's busy every day and absolutely jam packed on nice days (except for covid restrictions). It's also an absolute tourist magnet.

The funny thing is, the city government is talking about expanding the zones and make the whole town centre pedestrian only and the businesses are protesting with the same arguments as 20 years ago.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#45

Post by stormbrew »

batekush wrote: post #41
stormbrew wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, part of why that is the case is that walmart itself depresses wages. It comes to town, undercuts other businesses, those businesses close, people need jobs, they go to work at walmart (possibly at a loss of income but probably a loss of hours even if not), and then they can't afford to shop anywhere but walmart anymore. And the cycle continues. It's not like they're doing this in a snidely whiplash scheme-y s…

I don’t know, I think the decision to pay workers in literal company scrip had some mustache-twirling behind it. https://www.reuters.com/article/mexico-walmex-idUSN054659132...

I don't think we necessarily disagree here. I think these things are evil. I just don't think they're unique or special in the modern capitalist system. It's all gross.

But I think people get into a cognitive dissonance trap when they try to think of the people who are selling them cheap chicken legs as literally evil, when they can only imagine people doing things like engaging in slavery or wage suppression or whatever as things only people who wake up every morning going "How can I be evil today, I'm bored of tying people to train tracks!"

But nope. That's that guy you met at the last Startup Weekend event doing that. He seemed nice and you had a drink with him. He's a real person with a family and he made his money off diamond mining or selling the work of 8 year olds, and now he's a VC.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#46

Post by m463 »

seibelj wrote: post #34
m463 wrote: post #32

I think this is obvious if you watch the walmart movie[1] There was an interesting scene in the movie where a small town was getting a new walmart, and they drove around downtown. They pointed at each of the stores and assigned values like "6 months" or "3 months" as an estimate of survival after they lost all their business to walmart. Another wave of change has been moving in slow motion for years with online purch…

Here’s an episode of econtalk where the guest worked at Walmart and described his experiences https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/ Worth a listen if you want a counter point to the “wal mart is evil” trope.

To be clear, I was more making a point about market forces more than "walmart is evil" (although they are a ruthlessly efficient distribution system)

I know walmart is bigger, but I wonder if (when?) amazon's market cap will surpass it.

I don't know if walmart can transition if that's the endgame. Will they transition to online like netflix, or blockbuster?

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#47

Post by noobermin »

jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?

You're already failing with this logic.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#48

Post by noobermin »

cgriswald wrote: post #26
jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

I recently ordered something from Newegg and it was shipped from China to some place 500 miles away from me. They don’t even charge me... the seller does. They only guarantee. So if the seller doesn’t refund me then I have to file a claim through them. Screw that. My Amazon orders have dropped precipitously and I’m trying to get my girlfriend to stop ordering from there as well. I’ve gotten too many obvious someone-e…

Why is this being downvoted? Isn't this a common experience with online stores? Not to mention them tracking you amongst other things?

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#49

Post by Doxin »

enriquto wrote: post #40
axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

> we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos You are a few steps away to rediscovering the European city (if by an extremely convoluted way).

While a bit snarky, this comment does have a point. In most european cities it is entirely a normal thing to live on the floor above a shop.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#50

Post by procinct »

enriquto wrote: post #38
jcims wrote: post #7

This seems like a woefully incomplete analysis. The same basic evolution happened in manufacturing and for largely the same reasons. Boutique job shops replaced by industralized mass production facilities replaced by abstracted labor and infrastructure in offshore contracts. Boutique stores worked downtown because there was no better option, not because it was great. Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie?…

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? I had a hard time understanding the meaning of this sentence, and its context. The idea of "driving downtown to go shopping" is backwards to me. You live downtown, and walk a few meters to the shop. Then I realized that you may be from the USA, where your cities seem to be turned inside out. You are indeed a funny country.

I’m not from the USA but the statement makes perfect sense to me. I’m not quite sure what you imply with your point, that everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent.
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