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Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

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Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#81
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just 'the sky is falling' thinking. If groupon defaults, the businesses will just not honor the groupon coupons. After all, they haven't been paid for. The entire hypothesis of this article is that Groupon amounts to a marketing firm where you pay most of the cost in kind much later, instead of paying up front for a big marketing campaign. The 'in kind and later' part makes your scenario absurd. However, I th…

> Lots of businesses have excess capacity that costs them nothing to utilize. I dispute this assertion or, in the very least, see this as being far more complex than you suggest, for two reasons: 1. Customers who might otherwise pay full price will end up using these deals, which is a direct loss to the business; and 2. The inventory may be used up by such offers to such an extent that customers who might otherwise p…

"Lots of businesses have excess capacity that costs them nothing to utilize"

Yes, This is one of the most dubious Groupon "sells".

There are a very small class of businesses that excess capacity which costs nothing to use. These mostly the type of business where you're just consuming an "experience" - adult classes, skydiving school, etc. Unfortunately, a big part of business, classes, is already competing with the Internet. And so the rest is skydiving schools, martial arts schools, and yoga schools, the few places where you just have to be there. But those are pretty marginal.

Restaurants certainly aren't in that class. Food is expensive. Food is a significant share of cost for anything but the most expensive restaurants. Sure, restaurants may throw food away each day BUT the only way to profit from that optimizing that is to sell food cheap on the contingency that its available. That's far from the Groupon model and clearly would "cheapen" the feel of any given restaurant.

I heard of a restaurant in France years ago that priced by the hour. That could actually cut waste to nearly zero - but it would destroy "the feeling of specialness" which many higher end restaurants cultivate.

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#82
post #39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a worst case scenario where Groupon files for Chapter 11 and defaults on all outstanding debts to merchants, which by that stage could amount to over a billion dollars (IIRC it's currently $280 million). Imagine that because of that lost revenue many small businesses end up collapsing. At the same time it becomes more public knowledge that 2010 funding rounds were to buy out early investors, who made out like…

There's a huge difference between this and Enron/Worldcom, which inspired Sarbanes Oxley. The latter two committed actual fraud. As in, this article would be saying "Wow, Groupon is hugely profitable" rather than the press we're seeing now.

While this is admittedly quite different from Enron/Worldcom style fraud, Groupon Chairman Eric Lefkofsky did recently proclaim that Groupon will be "wildly profitable." That's quite a statement for a company's pre-IPO quiet period and one that people will certainly look back to should the worst-case (or even somewhat-bad-case) come to pass.

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#84
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based upon the mounting evidence about the condition of Groupon, cletus' fear "that a collapse of Groupon--which I actually see as a non unrealistic possibility--will taint other Internet/tech IPOs and, even worse, prompt the Federal government into more kneejerk regulation even stupider and more onerous than Sarbanes-Oxley." makes absolutely no sense. Suggesting that a poorly performing companies weak IPO, or otherw…

Imagine a worst case scenario where Groupon files for Chapter 11 and defaults on all outstanding debts to merchants, which by that stage could amount to over a billion dollars (IIRC it's currently $280 million). Imagine that because of that lost revenue many small businesses end up collapsing. At the same time it becomes more public knowledge that 2010 funding rounds were to buy out early investors, who made out like…

They need more rev so they become to big to fail and can use the fed discount window or QE3.

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#85
post #68

It's almost absurd how closely Groupon is following the classic 'tech bubble' road to disaster. 1. Hype (check) 2. IPO talk (check) 3. Turn down acquisition at incredibly high P/E (check) 4. Superbowl Advert (check) 5. IPO just in time to avoid running out of money (on the way) 6. Market goes rational (inevitable, forces pushing it irrational can't do so forever), valuation plumets 7. Unable to raise money by selling…

6. Market goes rational (inevitable, forces pushing it irrational can't do so forever), valuation plumets [sic] It's a nitpick, but the only irrationality that gets checked is unsustainable irrationality. It's a bit of a simplification to say that profits are actually "equilibrium irrationality," but not by much. If the market were actually composed of rational agents, all prices would be driven down to material cost…

The "efficient market hypothesis" is broadly misunderstood. What it really says is something more like "a free market will strongly tend not to have easy arbitrage opportunities", not that it's guaranteed to produce a result that conforms to any particular person's goals for ideal societies or anything, not even free market advocates.

(Micro)-Economics is much more like physics; here is how it tends to work, how it tends to optimize, how it tends to in practice actively subvert attempts to predict what it will do (and thereby actively resisting any attempt to create a macro-economic theory, or at least one that lasts for any period of time). It's a very physics-like definition of "efficiency". The fact that the dam broke in the most energy-efficient manner and the resulting water deluge can be modeled with a high degree of accuracy by assuming it will follow the least-energy course in an efficient manner doesn't make the resulting flood "good" or "desirable"... just... efficient.

On the other hand, start your economics model with anything else and it's like trying to rewrite physics starting with material ether or something. I have "faith in the markets" in much the same way I have faith in physics (which I will remind you contains a lot of similar "merely statistical" theories, what you learned in school is the aberration, not the rule, and also is really strong on the fundamentals and gets progressively weaker as the systems get larger, rather like economics), but that doesn't mean I blindly trust them. Physics will kill you without blinking. But if you want to prevent that, it's a lot better to come to understand the laws of physics than to try to create new rules for the universe by sheer force of denial. Trying to guide the physics while actively refusing to learn about it is doomed to failure, too. Same for microecon.

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#86
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a worst case scenario where Groupon files for Chapter 11 and defaults on all outstanding debts to merchants, which by that stage could amount to over a billion dollars (IIRC it's currently $280 million). Imagine that because of that lost revenue many small businesses end up collapsing. At the same time it becomes more public knowledge that 2010 funding rounds were to buy out early investors, who made out like…

This is just 'the sky is falling' thinking. If groupon defaults, the businesses will just not honor the groupon coupons. After all, they haven't been paid for. The entire hypothesis of this article is that Groupon amounts to a marketing firm where you pay most of the cost in kind much later, instead of paying up front for a big marketing campaign. The 'in kind and later' part makes your scenario absurd. However, I th…

[deleted]

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#87
post #66
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but justifying a $15 Billion (with a B) valuation on a business that Groupon isn't even in yet is pointless. It smacks of Enron, to be honest.

What percentage of Amazon's income comes from Book sales ? A large amount of Amazon's valuation came from the fact that they'd be able to extend and become the dominant online retailer in a huge number of product categories.

Are people really down-voting a comment made in good faith purely because they disagree with it, or is there somethingly fundamentally wrong with my statement which I'm just completely missing ?

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#88
I got stung the other day by a Groupon clone here in Australia. My wife asked me to buy the daily deal, which I did, without checking it properly. The business in question doesn't exist.

Looks like the daily deal company did absolutely no checking that it was legit or the business did as this article suggests and knew they were going bankrupt anyway.

I started asking around and found a few similar stories from friends and colleagues. Hoping to see all of this hit the news soon.

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#89
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6. Market goes rational (inevitable, forces pushing it irrational can't do so forever), valuation plumets [sic] It's a nitpick, but the only irrationality that gets checked is unsustainable irrationality. It's a bit of a simplification to say that profits are actually "equilibrium irrationality," but not by much. If the market were actually composed of rational agents, all prices would be driven down to material cost…

I wouldn't claim that the market generally is efficient, but I strongly suspect that it a lot like Brownian Motion. No observer could possibly predict which direction it will jump next, but the overall parameters are determined in some fundamental way. I call this Brownian because to someone observing the motion of a single atom, it appears random, but it is entirely determined by the motion and position of other ato…

" I strongly suspect that it a lot like Brownian Motion"

1.Mkt isn't like BM. BM permits -ve values & any market index say SPY must be non-negative.

2. We (quants) model market indices like SPY as a log-normal process like so : dS = rSdt + sigmaSdz where S = underlying ( or market index ) dS = change in S, dt = change in time r = risk free interest rate ( about 0.03 % currently ) dz = normally distributed rv with mean 0, std dev sigma

There is an embedded Brownian component in dz, so also in S. But that doesn't make S itself Brownian. More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_process

"No observer could possibly predict which direction it will jump next"

Nobody is trying to do that in the very next instant. OTOH, you can certainly predict where the market will go, say, in a year. Well known econ result: DP ratio regresses positively with return. ie. Dividend-price ratio predicts stock return with high statistical significance. Source: Cochrance, French/Fama, et al. http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3122601/campbells...

"there are plenty of people making random guesses...there are also plenty of fools, and they are investing on all sorts of techniques which ignore any of the global considerations, and of course this is how bubbles expand."

Ha ha ha! Very amusing but very inaccurate. I think this is my general problem with geeks on the outside of finance. They happen to think markets are purely stochastic. X has randomness doesn't mean X is unpredictable. Otherwise why have APT, CAPM, covariance matrices, factor models, Heath Jarrow, Black Litterman...you've written off some 100+ years of economics in one breath !

To summarize, there are tons of observers, who predict where the overall market or some portfolio of equities ( or bonds or agencies or munis or treasuries or whatever else ) will go. To get data points for these predictions, you use a historical time window, compute coVar matrices, invert them, build a CAPM....etc. Anyways, its not rocket science. There are tons of CFAs & Finmath engg ( I'm one of them ) who do this sort of work day in and day out. Its our bread & butter. If I said something like "market is a lot like brownian motion & people are making random guesses", I'd be out of a job.

Re: Why Groupon Is Poised For Collapse

#90
post #87
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of Amazon's income comes from Book sales ? A large amount of Amazon's valuation came from the fact that they'd be able to extend and become the dominant online retailer in a huge number of product categories.

Are people really down-voting a comment made in good faith purely because they disagree with it, or is there somethingly fundamentally wrong with my statement which I'm just completely missing ?

I can't speak for others, but I downvoted because the time to figure out your business model is long before IPO. So a claim that an "attack" isn't valid because it ignores the possibility of radical business model changes isn't worth discussing.
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