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Is Consciousness Everywhere?

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Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#151
post #86

I don't think so. Let's be logical - consciousness, what is it good for? It protects the body, keeps itself alive. Then you can't have consciousness everywhere. It needs self replication, evolution and learning in order to exist. You need to have agent and environment in order to have consciousness, an agent with goals and needs, just any rock will not make a decent agent.

I agree an evolutionary approach seems a good way of looking at the thing. Being conscious of what is going on around you is obviously an advantage over not.

Also from a how the brain works point of view you have billions of neurons recognising things in parallel and the data seems to narrow down from that to awareness of a small number of things which you can logically reason about. I'd imagine a lot of the conscious experience comes from that - the neural net highlights as it were.

Like if you're in the woods your pattern recogniser bits may be going there's a leaf there, there's a twig there, there's a bear attacking, there's some moss on the tree etc. and then the bear bit will get highlighted so you can think 'ah pepper spray' or what have you. The highlights being what we experience as consciousness.

It implies you get human like consciousness from that kind of mechanism so yes for a mouse, no for a carrot.

It also differentiates stuff going on in your brain that you are aware of and respond to but are not consciously aware of to that which you are. Say you are being chased by the bear and run. The logistics of running - path dips 2cm, raise left leg 5cm... you will not be consciously aware of because the highlights and logical reasoning bit will be busy with 'shit -there's bear what next?' type issues.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#154

Before we can ask intelligent, falsifiable questions about consciousness we need a rigorous definition of what consciousness is. Personally I think the word is a vague term and that a rigorous definition is impossible. Therefore, if my hypothesis is true, we can not not scientifically investigate "consciousness" any more than we can scientifically investigate "divinity" or "spookiness." If you disagree with my hypoth…

There can be no rigorous definition of what consciousness is, just names (experience, subjectivity, awareness, self, you) because it has no qualities.

Consciousness is impossible to describe. It is neither hot nor cold, it has no size, and it experiences no passage of time as it is always now, eternal. There are no sides to it and no parts. It has no extent. It cannot be pointed to.

It is beyond all possible signification, yet it is the significance of all acts and events and things.

The closest thing you can get to a physical referent for consciousness is to notice that "consciousness" is a synonym for "now". (To spell it out: you have never once in all your life been conscious at a time other than now.)

- - - -

From my POV a very common mistake (TFA makes it, and you seem to as well) is to insist that the contents of consciousness are the thing itself. It's like mistaking the television program for the screen itself. The problem with that mistake is that there's no argument that can counter it. Reality of consciousness is an experiential thing that, once grokked, changes the nature of one's being, not a formula or measurement.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#155

I have been hearing about Koch, and Tononi, and panpsychism, and phi for years now, in these articles summarizing consciousness for laymen, (a group that includes me). And these very long articles bloviate but never go any further than giving a facile description of phi, claiming that this IIT "theory" is testable, and then not saying how it could be tested. The articles from five years ago and this one seem intercha…

I think there's a sort of definitional sleight of hand going on here, a type that I see often these days:

1. [Word A] means [Concept X] to most people.

2. [Concept X] doesn't apply to [Item K], but [Concept Y] does.

3. By creating a new definition, finding an obscure definition, or twisting a current definition I can argue that [Word A] technically can mean [Concept Y], and then apply the term to [Item K].

4. Now that I'm using [Word A] for [Item K], most people will associate [Item K] with [Concept X].

So when we say "consciousness," most people conjure up some concept about human like thought and communication. That's the reason why most people find the word compelling, and it obviously (almost by definition) doesn't apply to most of the stuff talked about in this article.

When coming across arguments that rely on this type of sleight of hand, I think it's best to ask yourself what the article would actually be saying if the loaded term was replaced by another term or phrase that makes it explicitly clear what the other means. So when the author of this article writes something like this:

> This is utterly frigid, hundreds of degrees colder than any temperature terrestrial organisms can survive. But the fact that the temperature is non-zero implies a corresponding tiny amount of heat in deep space. This of course implies a corresponding tiny amount of experience.

It seems that he's arguing that consciousness is experience and experience is any activity, even at the atomic level. So if we remove the sleight of hand and ask "Is there some level of activity, even sleight activity at the atomic level, everywhere?" The answer might be affirmative (if we're using a loose sense of the word "everywhere"), but it's not a particularly surprising or even interesting question to answer.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#156
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I meditate, sometimes I can notice that I'm thinking verbal thoughts—suggesting that verbal thoughts transpire subconsciously, as well. Something similar was coming up recently in my meditation practice, where I'd be aware of a vague impulse of a thought or idea arising before it became verbalized. Then I realized that I had had that experience before, when I was a kid and playing music a lot, where I'd notice…

I have always had the rather unsettling feeling that my internal monologue is a post-hoc justification or rationalization for what my subconscious just caused me to do, and was not the cause.

Then you will really enjoy the work of Daniel Wegner. Most of his research is summarized in the book "Illusion of the Conscious Will".

His main argument is that we have two causal models to understanding the world, direct physical ones and "agent based". The first is good for figuring out a thrown rock is about to hit you and the agent based models are important for understanding things like a tigers sneaking up on prey.

Wegner proposes that when we apply this agent based model to our own actions we come up with the illusion of a conscious will. This is essentially the same as your post-hoc justification.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a single neuron? After all, a single neuron is far more complex than a worm—just like a company is far less complex than the people who compose it.

How? A worm is a whole multicellular organism. A neuron's just a cell, one that's specialized into a single function. All a single neuron does is pass a signal to the synaptic cleft in response to a chemical or electrical signal at the other end. It's a simple subunit of a larger system. Saying a single neuron is more complex than a worm is like saying a cat6 ethernet cable is more complex than a blast furnace.

Just because a structure is larger and contains complex structures does not mean the larger system is more complex. For instance, I can create a logic gate with some friends. The logic gate is way simpler than the people composing it.

Neurons can have millions of mitochondria [1], which they dynamically move about the cell. Neurons are like amoeba with dozens of pseudopods when young. Amoeba are more complicated than worms, in terms of degrees of freedom, no?

Check this video of fetal neurons movin' about. So cute! https://youtu.be/hb7tjqhfDus

[1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncir.2016.0002...

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#158
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amazon description says: "Radin shows how we know that psychic phenomena such as telepathy, clairvoyance, and psychokinesis are real, based on scientific evidence from thousands of controlled lab test". Actually as far as I understand we know that telepathy does not work, and even more so with psychokinesis. Did you read the book, can you point me to the scientific evidence of psychokinesis?

I can point you to probably the last time Radin's work was ripped apart on HN, at least. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26066233

fair enough, i,m not here to promote or defend his work, you,re free to think what you want. i shared what,s been helpful and enlightening for me personally, and it,s up to you to perceive it in your own way.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#159
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a good podcast or Youtube video for starters? Highly sceptic of the idea and therefore intrigued.

You can start with the last time Radin's work was savaged in the comments of an HN article. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26066233

first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win :)
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