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Is Consciousness Everywhere?

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

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Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#121

Post by mehphp »

retrac wrote: post #77
mtalantikite wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I meditate, sometimes I can notice that I'm thinking verbal thoughts—suggesting that verbal thoughts transpire subconsciously, as well. Something similar was coming up recently in my meditation practice, where I'd be aware of a vague impulse of a thought or idea arising before it became verbalized. Then I realized that I had had that experience before, when I was a kid and playing music a lot, where I'd notice…

I have always had the rather unsettling feeling that my internal monologue is a post-hoc justification or rationalization for what my subconscious just caused me to do, and was not the cause.

Well I mean... you can't think a thought before you think it; so of course there would be a prior cause before you became aware of it. How else would it work?

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#122

Post by dr_dshiv »

morpheos137 wrote: post #88
dr_dshiv wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a single neuron? After all, a single neuron is far more complex than a worm—just like a company is far less complex than the people who compose it.

A single neuron is not an independent self replicating organism so I would not say a single neuron is alive (on its own) per my definition, although it is part of a larger living creature.

Are people actually independent self-replicating organisms. We are all parts of a superorganism, no?

Each of our experiences are composed of the experiences of (billions?) of other people. We aren't islands.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#123

Post by ncmncm »

Saying everything is conscious is exactly like saying nothing is conscious. To make distinctions, you need differences.

The confusion people experience around consciousness amounts to a language problem. We want nouns to refer to things, but nouns can equally refer to activities. What happens to your consciousness when you die? What happens to your breathing when you die? What happens to the speed when the car stops? If consciousness is an activity, then it can come and go, like sleeping can subside and be replaced by eating. The sleeping hasn't gone anywhere, there's nothing to go and nowhere for it to go to.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#124

Post by tayo42 »

phcordner wrote: post #99
dr_dshiv wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a single neuron? After all, a single neuron is far more complex than a worm—just like a company is far less complex than the people who compose it.

How? A worm is a whole multicellular organism. A neuron's just a cell, one that's specialized into a single function. All a single neuron does is pass a signal to the synaptic cleft in response to a chemical or electrical signal at the other end. It's a simple subunit of a larger system. Saying a single neuron is more complex than a worm is like saying a cat6 ethernet cable is more complex than a blast furnace.

I agree with the sentiment, but I think your selling neurons short. They do grow, develop and change over time as a response to their inputs.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#125

Post by lurquer »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #68
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good place to start, if you are a firm skeptic and not willing to even attempt faith or your own empirical experiences, is a book called Entangled Minds. There is not a single claim made in this book which does not have a reference to a proper peer-reviewed paper attached to it, iirc several hundred papers in all. It firmly supports consciousness being in at minimum earthworms, and probably even ,,lower,, creatures…

How about a single neuron? After all, a single neuron is far more complex than a worm—just like a company is far less complex than the people who compose it.

Excellent point, and one that many fail to grasp.

Indeed, I’ve always suspected your observation may be the best definition of ‘life’ we currently have; namely, living systems are composed of parts that are more complex than the whole.

It’s a hard concept to articulate.

But, as you obviously know, the principle is obvious.. it doesn’t stop with the neuron; I would suspect the neurons membrane or its organelles are more ‘complex’ than the neuron itself.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#127

Post by morpheos137 »

mehphp wrote: post #110
morpheos137 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a non-materialist and I think consciousness is not a thing. So there's that position too. What do humans, mammals and earthworms have in common that AI or robots do not (as yet?) I would not say it is consciousness (because my position is there is really no such thing) but rather they have in common the fact that they are alive and subject to the Darwinian replication program and guided by common mental processe…

Can you expand on consciousness not being a thing? You mean it doesn't exist at all or it isn't a physical thing?

I don't believe consciousness exists in a meaningful way in the real world. It certainly exists as a word in a dictionary and as something for philosophical types to have woo debates over. I think the word is vague term that signifies different somewhat independent things that living organisms have to a greater or lesser extent (memory, emotion, thought, embodiment, etc). I believe attempting to have a scientific debate about consciousness is kind of like asking how many angels could dance on the head of pin.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#128

Post by selestify »

tosser0001 wrote: post #109
justinpombrio wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're missing anything. Tononi made a formula related to how complicated a system is, and claimed that its measures consciousness. And what are you supposed to say to that, when no one can agree on what the word "consciousness" means, but people are still so attached to the word? For Scott Aaronson's take on "Integrated Information Theory": https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1799

Being able to model consciousness mathematically opens up some grotesque possibilities. Human suffering presumably has some sort of limit based purely on our physical makeup. Suppose though the very concept of subjective suffering could be modeled in some way. Is there any law in the universe that says there is a limit to suffering, pain (or pleasure)? Could an investigator of the future test out an algorithm on a co…

It's interesting that our minds automatically turn to the worst possibility, even though this also implies that we could find out what the mathematical limit of joy is. Chances are, there would be a lot more processes simulating joy than pain.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#129

Post by visarga »

kkoncevicius wrote: post #13

I have one problem with consciousness is everywhere argument. Namely, if everything down to ants is conscious - how lucky are we to end up experiencing the world as humans? The chances are just too small for me to accept it at face value.

> everything down to ants is conscious

Probably anything that self replicates and has to fight for resources. Even a cell can have perception and behaviour. It's actually fascinating, but a network of DNA and proteins can function like a neural net inside a single cell.

Re: Is Consciousness Everywhere?

#130

Post by asey »

driggs wrote: post #48

I've long pondered the idea that consciousness is inherent to all "things" - animal, vegetable, mineral; atom, planet, solar system - in that things experience _being_, whatever that means for a given thing. A recent oral surgery gave this hypothesis pause. I was given Propofol as an anesthetic, and upon awakening had an extremely impactful existential experience. My very consciousness had been extinguished, instantl…

I think that would be a question of memory rather than having a conscious experience though I think it raises the question of whether consciousness can exist without some mechanism for memory even if only short term.
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