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Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

sciencenorway.no

111–120 of 288 posts

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#111
post #84

I'm happy this research has been done so quickly, but am somewhat annoyed that the public conversation is so focused on whether or not the vaccine can possibly cause any problems, and not at all focused on the risk management question of what the optimal choice here is. The chance of getting a blood clot seems so low that it may for all I know be equivalent to the risk of dying in the streets while jaywalking to get…

> Compared to the risk of going unvaccinated, it's an obvious choice.

I think the insidious and repugnant effect of this line of thinking is that it subverts the body autonomy and free will that every human being should enjoy.

The issue isn’t only risk, rather it’s individuals deciding based on their own judgement, which may involve their own evaluation (informed or not) of risk.

The public health establishment is set on presenting the illusion that people have absolutely no choice but to take a vaccine that was rapidly developed using novel technology.

In my opinion, this is unethical. No human being should be coerced or propagandized into taking drugs or medicine of any type.

The only responsibility of government should be presenting boring information about the vaccine to be used by people to decide what they’d like to do. But it’s very clear that society at large is set on propaganda and conformity in the pursuit of technocratic policy goals.

It’s precisely this well-intentioned pursuit of end goals augmented by the certainty of science that allowed the eugenics of the 1920s. And it seems like a century later we think we’re immune to that pernicious illusion afforded by science.

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#112

Is it really so crazy to think that these vaccines which were (necessarily) rushed to production might have problems? The solution is not to just shut our eyes and say “well COVID is worse”. We have to understand the risks to administer the right vaccine to people with risk factors, and so we know how to treat the conditions that result.

There seems to be some working medication that helps people who have gotten covid: https://vdmeta.com/ and https://ivmmeta.com/

(I'm not working in the fields of medicine, statistics or virology.)

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#113
post #5

Interesting, and very concerning if it's true. I was given my first shot of the AZ vaccine on Monday afternoon, so I was aware of the reports of blood clots at the time although only in outline. I just don't understand how come the same reaction hasn't been seen in the millions of people vaccinated with AZ outside Norway (edit - it has been, thanks for the info, none of the articles I've come across properly explaine…

> railcar switch dilemma

In case you tried to remember, this is generally referred to as the trolley problem.

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> risk turns out to be 1 in 50.000 It's more like 1 in 500,000.

The numbers are three healthcare workers out of 120,000 vaccinated in Norway, with one death, so the risk is 1 in 40,000 from what we know. On top of that we can speculate that healthcare workers are more likely to seek treatment than the average vaccine recipient and they are healthy adults of average age.

That's an odd sample to use unless you have some sort of agenda. The 40 out of 17MM is much more statistically significant.

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#115

The rate of blood clots as a side effect for the AZ covid jab is less than that of the combined contraceptive pill - does that mean that both need to be discontinued?

I heard a doctor comment yesterday that seems to summarize what's happening: "It's perceived as worse to actively kill someone than to kill them through inaction; the scale doesn't matter." So even if the vaccine is responsible for these deaths, the people making the administration decisions will choose having 10x or 100x the number of people die from not getting them vaccinated quickly. So much for "science-based de…

Trolley problem with a needle and some dice

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#117
post #85
post #17

Astra Zeneca says it's less than 40 cases in 17 million. Are those numbers accurate? That seems like quite a small population affected.

That is a significant number for a medicament that is given to healthy people. If you had children and one of them died as a result of a vaccine, you would not say is a small population affected. There are other vaccines that can be used. I believe Oxford will license Sputnik and manufacture it.

>> If you had children and one of them died as a result of a vaccine, you would not say is a small population affected.

This is just a smart way of saying "Won't someone think of the children?" It's not genuine for you to speak of general-population statistical percentages in one sentence then evoke the emotional response from someone's specific loved-one in the next.

>> There are other vaccines that can be used

We need to get needles in arms NOW to save the most lives; any delay or alternative approach is actively killing people.

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#118
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Norway has also had at least three serious cases with 130.000 people vaccinated, so the incidence is certainly higher than 1 per 2.3 million. That's not how numbers work. You can't look at California, for example, and conclude that because 63% of voters chose Biden, his national vote share is certainly higher than 52%.

It's 1 in 43.000 (Norway) versus 1 in 2.3 million (AZ numbers). That's a two orders of magnitude difference. While I can amend my statement to agree it's not certain that local factors and randomness haven't affected the outcome that much, it's a very suspicious observation.

n=3 here. It's misplaced to be talking about orders of magnitude when a single case would drastically move the needle.

If there were only one case in Norway (i.e. 1 in 130,000) it would still be orders of magnitude difference. But that's not meaningful.

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#119

The rate of blood clots as a side effect for the AZ covid jab is less than that of the combined contraceptive pill - does that mean that both need to be discontinued?

The vaccination pause is not about the rate of general blood clots, but a specific kind of blood clot in the brain among a younger population that’s usually way more rare.

Re: Norwegian experts say blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

#120
post #103
post #84

I'm happy this research has been done so quickly, but am somewhat annoyed that the public conversation is so focused on whether or not the vaccine can possibly cause any problems, and not at all focused on the risk management question of what the optimal choice here is. The chance of getting a blood clot seems so low that it may for all I know be equivalent to the risk of dying in the streets while jaywalking to get…

>The chance of getting a blood clot seems so low that it may for all I know be equivalent to the risk of dying in the streets while jaywalking to get to the vaccination center. Compared to the risk of going unvaccinated, it's an obvious choice. Are you sure this holds true for a 25 year old healthy person?

Well, this is the discussion I'd like to see.

You have people born in the 90s hospitalized in Norway now. Many experience long term physical and cognitive effects. And as long as we're assuming everyone goes unvaccinated, the chance of contracting COVID goes towards 1 over time, while the R-number explodes as we open up society to avoid economic ruin. Not a good scenario IMO.

As I said, the relevant comparison in the real world is versus waiting for another vaccine, where it the choice is much less obvious, and dependent on the disease level in the population.

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