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Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

chaos.social

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Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#221

Post by FeepingCreature »

devdas wrote: post #167
FeepingCreature wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't with the not tolerating, it's with the pushing for others not to tolerate. Freedom requires choice. Our problem is that we've built almost our entire ecosystem on systems where a single actor's intolerance can deny millions of people access to a product. This seemed like a good idea at the time. Apparently what it comes down to is the entire economy needs to be duplicated? Banks, payment providers,…

If you perceive tolerance as a peace treaty rather than a moral precept, then the paradox of tolerance disappears. https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1... You don't have to tolerate the intolerant, and the people running the app stores are free to make their choices of who they allow into the store. If you want to be associated with fascists and racists, that is up to you, but you will not be…

It is because I perceive tolerance as a peace treaty rather than a moral precept that I disagree with your conclusion.

Stop disturbing the peace.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#222

Post by FeepingCreature »

bitwize wrote: post #131
FeepingCreature wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't with the not tolerating, it's with the pushing for others not to tolerate. Freedom requires choice. Our problem is that we've built almost our entire ecosystem on systems where a single actor's intolerance can deny millions of people access to a product. This seemed like a good idea at the time. Apparently what it comes down to is the entire economy needs to be duplicated? Banks, payment providers,…

> Apparently what it comes down to is the entire economy needs to be duplicated? Banks, payment providers, app stores, content delivery networks, web hosting, all the way to operating systems. What it comes down to is if you're a fascist you won't be allowed to participate in the economy at all to spread your message. Service providers who cater to fascists will be cut off by the banks, and banks that refuse to do th…

> And people very reasonably ask – hey, I notice my side kind of controls all of this stuff, the situation is actually asymmetrical, they have no way of retaliating, maybe we should just grind our enemies beneath our boots this one time.

> And then when it turns out that the enemies can just leave and start their own institutions, with horrendous results for everybody, the cry goes up “Wait, that’s unfair! Nobody ever said you could do that! Come back so we can grind you beneath our boots some more!”

I don't think often of the right to "go away if you don't like something", but that's because it's so basic and essential I barely consider it.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#223

Post by josephcsible »

prvc wrote: post #161
arsome wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't call it free software. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html "The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0)."

Interesting point. Would like to hear what someone like RMS would say about this case.

He doesn't care what restrictions are in a program's source code, as long as you're both legally allowed and technically able to create and use a modified version of the program without them.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#224

Post by josephcsible »

arsome wrote: post #146
jakelazaroff wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I build something, I alone get to decide what my labor enables and what it does not. If you disagree with my choices, you’re free to use a tool built by someone whose values better align with yours.

Just don't call it free software. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html "The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0)."

It's still free software. It only wouldn't be if the license said you weren't allowed to remove the restrictions, or if it didn't come with the source code needed for you to do so.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#225

Post by brigandish »

dragonwriter wrote: post #201
swayvil wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deplatforming isn't speech tho. It's something quite different.

> Deplatforming isn't speech tho. Criticizing speech is speech. Criticizing speech and advocating, on the basis of that criticism, that people should choose not to relay the criticized speech is speech. Choosing what speech to relay or not is speech (except when it is “press”, but those are effectively aspects of the same thing called out separately to prevent an artificial distinction from being used to regulate spe…

> Deplatforming is speech, from advocacy to execution.

Censorship (of which deplatforming is one form) is not the same as choosing not to listen, and hence, is not part of freedom of speech.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#226

Post by jakelazaroff »

syshum wrote: post #215
jakelazaroff wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t actually think that’s accurate. I don’t see the term “free speech” or any obvious variation on https://tusky.app or even on https://joinmastodon.org . As I understand it, their main goal is escaping corporate control, and any freedom from censorship they provide is incidental. See too Mastodon’s “server covenant”, which seeks to quarantine instances that allow hateful content: https://joinmastodon.org/covenan…

Right on the home page of mastodon "Follow friends and discover new ones among more than 4.4M people. Publish anything you want:" Clearly that is a false statement if they are imposing their view of what "correct" speech is. They both also license their code under GPL, even though they violate Freedom 0 of the core freedom model the GPL is designed to protect The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpos…

Why did you omit the second half of that sentence? They’re clearly referring to the format, not the content:

> Publish anything you want: links, pictures, text, video.

You’re misinterpreting the meaning of freedom 0. Tusky and Mastodon comply with both the letter and the spirit:

> The freedom to run the program as you wish means that you are not forbidden or stopped from making it run. This has nothing to do with what functionality the program has, whether it is technically capable of functioning in any given environment, or whether it is useful for any particular computing activity.

> For example, if the code arbitrarily rejects certain meaningful inputs—or even fails unconditionally—that may make the program less useful, perhaps even totally useless, but it does not deny users the freedom to run the program, so it does not conflict with freedom 0. If the program is free, the users can overcome the loss of usefulness, because freedoms 1 and 3 permit users and communities to make and distribute modified versions without the arbitrary nuisance code.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#227

Post by shakow »

luckylion wrote: post #148
shakow wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a dozen apps, and most of these are opensource. Not to count that the protocol and the federation are open. Once again, “free speech” is not “spoon-feed you a way to reach millions of people in an eyeblink”, it's “don't prevent you from doing it”.

> There is a dozen apps, and most of these are opensource. And some of them work in tandem, apparently. > Not to count that the protocol and the federation are open. HTTP is open. Would you not consider it problematic if Google blocked accessing websites because some engineer doesn't like the opinions published on those websites?

> And some of them work in tandem, apparently.

Yeah, that's called a fork. Now, if you don't like them you can switch to Yuito, Mammut, Ivory, Mastobone, Stegodon, Fedilab, or the web client of your instance, or develop your own.

> Would you not consider it problematic if Google blocked accessing websites because some engineer doesn't like the opinions published on those websites?

They're already doing it, in China for instance; or on Chrome if a website is on their safe browsing list.

And no, I don't find it problematic. Google is a private company, I don't have any say in what they do with their property as long as they follow the law.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#228

Post by nine_k »

justinclift wrote: post #206
nine_k wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter can ban a US president but not an Iran president? I think it's not about just formal power, but also about political affiliation.

And/or maybe the context of each banning matters? :)

It should not, if users are banned for violating written rules.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#229

Post by syshum »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #226
syshum wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right on the home page of mastodon "Follow friends and discover new ones among more than 4.4M people. Publish anything you want:" Clearly that is a false statement if they are imposing their view of what "correct" speech is. They both also license their code under GPL, even though they violate Freedom 0 of the core freedom model the GPL is designed to protect The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpos…

Why did you omit the second half of that sentence? They’re clearly referring to the format, not the content: > Publish anything you want: links, pictures, text, video. You’re misinterpreting the meaning of freedom 0. Tusky and Mastodon comply with both the letter and the spirit: > The freedom to run the program as you wish means that you are not forbidden or stopped from making it run. This has nothing to do with wha…

It is sad that as a culture we are loosing the value of freedom and bend over backwards to justify why it is ok for people to limit other peoples freedom

When i first got into the IT world many decades ago it was largely libertarian, free culture was rampant and attempts to lock down peoples speech, and freedom was viewed very badly

Today people like you find anything and everything to not only justify your Authoritarianism and desire for control over others, you do so by attempting to gas light people in to thinking you are actually supporting freedom

Sorry I was there, I lived through the rise of the internet, I lived through the crypto wars, I saw the raise of Free Software, and Open source, I saw it all first hand... I know the dangers if the society you desire, but it seems history will need to repeat itself before people will learn

This trend in some circles to limit speech and thought will not turn out good for anyone, never in history has speech codes and thought police been a good thing for society, and I see no reason to believe that the so called "progressives" that are leading this new round of authoritarian policies will turn out any different.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#230

Post by [deleted] »

syshum wrote: post #229
jakelazaroff wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you omit the second half of that sentence? They’re clearly referring to the format, not the content: > Publish anything you want: links, pictures, text, video. You’re misinterpreting the meaning of freedom 0. Tusky and Mastodon comply with both the letter and the spirit: > The freedom to run the program as you wish means that you are not forbidden or stopped from making it run. This has nothing to do with wha…

It is sad that as a culture we are loosing the value of freedom and bend over backwards to justify why it is ok for people to limit other peoples freedom When i first got into the IT world many decades ago it was largely libertarian, free culture was rampant and attempts to lock down peoples speech, and freedom was viewed very badly Today people like you find anything and everything to not only justify your Authorita…

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