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How Amazon Crushes Unions

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241–250 of 261 posts

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thinking leads to more poverty and less social mobility. Factory workers in China get paid less than $5/hour, yet this so-called "exploitation" directly led to a large reduction in poverty[1]. If everyone had accepted your framing and refused to do manufacturing business with China on that basis, the consequence of that would be more poverty and human suffering. If a person is being paid $4/hour and you come in…

My point is that an hourly rate can be exploitative even if it is the highest in the area.

I know, and my point is that's wrong.

A wage that just lifted someone out of poverty isn't exploitative by definition, unless we've mangled the definition of exploitation beyond recognition and we're trying to incentivize behavior with our language that literally creates more poverty.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#243
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? They used to break your legs. Now they just write stuff in a little booklet. Things have changed a lot.

The struggle is still the same. Things have just gotten more politically correct, because now every employee could record your Pinkertons beating up people and share it with the whole world. Don't think things have changed for any other reason that we forced them to do that.

> Don't think things have changed for any other reason that we forced them to do that.

We did not. Unless you are seventy. The changing laws of our country that make unions less useful have also gotten rid of private armies.

> The struggle is still the same.

Wow, no. Not at all. Not having people willing or able to hurt you kinda makes all the difference.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#244
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the rate $5/hr is inherently exploitative, then how can a person not capable of producing more than $5/hr of value ever be employed?

No one is saying it's inherently exploitative. Or at the very least, I'm not. It can be exploitative because if the other jobs in the area are inherently worth $X/hr (because they provide about that value to the company), then you can get away with paying $X/hr in that area even if the job is inherently worth significantly more (because it provides more value to the company).

  "because it provides more value to the company"
This is the basis of literally every transaction.

If you buy bread for $2, you do so because it has subject value if $2.5. If the bread cost $2.51, you wouldn't buy it.

If you hire someone for $13/hour, you do so because you're willing to pay $11/hour and you've gotten $2/hour of benefit on top.

There's zero transactions anywhere where the value to the company (or individual) isn't higher than what they're paying for it.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#245
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying it's inherently exploitative. Or at the very least, I'm not. It can be exploitative because if the other jobs in the area are inherently worth $X/hr (because they provide about that value to the company), then you can get away with paying $X/hr in that area even if the job is inherently worth significantly more (because it provides more value to the company).

"because it provides more value to the company" This is the basis of literally every transaction. If you buy bread for $2, you do so because it has subject value if $2.5. If the bread cost $2.51, you wouldn't buy it. If you hire someone for $13/hour, you do so because you're willing to pay $11/hour and you've gotten $2/hour of benefit on top. There's zero transactions anywhere where the value to the company (or indiv…

Despite some weird issues with your post, the problem lies in that companies get to basically engage in a sort of labor arbitrage.

They're paying someone $5/hr to provide them with $10/hr of value. The worker should be entitled to at the very least some of that extra value in the form of wages. Actually, all of it, but you know, get what you can.

That's the issue. There's $5/hr of value being essentially taken by the employer.

And before you come with any "but the business needs to profit", that's already accounted for. We're talking about what the worker provides to the company. The company can impart additional value as well. And that is what the company should be profiting. So if the company's infrastructure and economies of scale allow it to effectively sell the employee's effort at $15/hr, it does get to pocket that $5/hr. That's fair.

But like I said, due to the radical power imbalance, employers often get to engage in labor arbitrage. In which they underpay labor because employees often have no recourse. That doesn't make the labor worth less.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#246
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"because it provides more value to the company" This is the basis of literally every transaction. If you buy bread for $2, you do so because it has subject value if $2.5. If the bread cost $2.51, you wouldn't buy it. If you hire someone for $13/hour, you do so because you're willing to pay $11/hour and you've gotten $2/hour of benefit on top. There's zero transactions anywhere where the value to the company (or indiv…

Despite some weird issues with your post, the problem lies in that companies get to basically engage in a sort of labor arbitrage. They're paying someone $5/hr to provide them with $10/hr of value. The worker should be entitled to at the very least some of that extra value in the form of wages. Actually, all of it, but you know, get what you can. That's the issue. There's $5/hr of value being essentially taken by the…

If the employee's effort contributes (can be sold for) $15/hour, then that is the value of the employee to the company.

The company is therefore happy to pay between $0/hour and $14.99/hour to the employee, depending on the supply of relevant labor.

Where did the $10/hour number come from?

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#247
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite some weird issues with your post, the problem lies in that companies get to basically engage in a sort of labor arbitrage. They're paying someone $5/hr to provide them with $10/hr of value. The worker should be entitled to at the very least some of that extra value in the form of wages. Actually, all of it, but you know, get what you can. That's the issue. There's $5/hr of value being essentially taken by the…

If the employee's effort contributes (can be sold for) $15/hour, then that is the value of the employee to the company. The company is therefore happy to pay between $0/hour and $14.99/hour to the employee, depending on the supply of relevant labor. Where did the $10/hour number come from?

You do realize I made up all of the numbers, right? They're hypothetical numbers to illustrate a point. Because it is really difficult to pinpoint the actual value of labor and whatnot. And I'm not looking to discuss whether any particular job is worth any particular value. So I use a fictional, hypothetical world where I already know the values (because I made them up), to highlight a core point.

Which is why a lot of people want to steer away from the conversation of what labor is worth. Because we may have to admit that companies are short-changing their workers (no matter where they are working).

> $15/hour, then that is the value of the employee to the company.

That's an assertion that I do not grant you. And by definition of the fictional world I created, would not be true. The value they provide is $10/hr.

But let's assume that it is $15/hr for a second. Then, if the company provides no value whatsoever, then why should they get anything?

Why can't the worker just go and sell to whoever the company was selling to and make the money directly?

That reason is the value the company provides. And it is worth something. And I'm completely willing to acknowledge that. Just because something can be sold for $X doesn't mean any single part of the chain to produce that item provided all of the value.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#248
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the employee's effort contributes (can be sold for) $15/hour, then that is the value of the employee to the company. The company is therefore happy to pay between $0/hour and $14.99/hour to the employee, depending on the supply of relevant labor. Where did the $10/hour number come from?

You do realize I made up all of the numbers, right? They're hypothetical numbers to illustrate a point. Because it is really difficult to pinpoint the actual value of labor and whatnot. And I'm not looking to discuss whether any particular job is worth any particular value. So I use a fictional, hypothetical world where I already know the values (because I made them up), to highlight a core point. Which is why a lot…

> You do realize I made up all of the numbers, right?

Yes, I realize that.

I figured out the misunderstanding. Your $10/hour figure is net value after wages ($15/hour - $5/hour), whereas I was assuming you meant gross value provided by the employee to the employer. So, at least we're on the same page regarding that now.

> That reason is the value the company provides.

Yeah, exactly. Labor is one of the factors of production. The company puts all the factors together in a way that individuals cannot (due to scale or whatever), and pays labor a rent based on market prices. It also pays land or capital (other factors of production) rents too, based on market prices in the property and corporate bond markets.

Where we depart is on the normative judgement that labor should be paid more of that surplus value creation than what it's currently getting. The fact is that they currently are capturing some of that value creation, and that amount is determined by supply and demand in the labor market. The reason they don't get more is there's a large over-supply of fungible unskilled labor which just isn't that useful. It's like if there's a glut of capital or an over-supply of land (e.g. in a rural area); the rents go down accordingly because the inputs just aren't scarce. To introduce an intentional mispricing in the labor market, which would need to be done by force, will lead to a misallocation of resources. If inequality is a concern, there are less economically damaging policies to consider.

Where we especially depart is on the framing of this as exploitation. This mindset only leads to more human suffering. If you offer someone a job for $X+1/hour when their alternative is $X/hour, you've made their life better off, and we want to incentivize this as much as possible instead of condemning it because $X+1/hour is "too small". It is after-all what pulled China out of poverty, and if we instead had pushed this exploitation narrative, we might not have seen this humanitarian miracle play out.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#249
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who don't know how to run a business I submit that if business can't exist without a government subsidy that allows them to pay their employees less than a living wage, then the people running the business do not , in fact, know how to run it.

I agree, but I know first hand that the businesses I'm referring to pay a minimum salary of $45K and the vast majority of employees are above $55K. These businesses are IT service providers, providing their services to other small or medium businesses. The clients in this industry are very price conscious and wouldn't care that the staff unionized at one company, they wouldn't be able to justify a significant price i…

That's $22.50/hr before taxes. It's barely a living wage in for a single adult with no kids some places.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#250
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize I made up all of the numbers, right? They're hypothetical numbers to illustrate a point. Because it is really difficult to pinpoint the actual value of labor and whatnot. And I'm not looking to discuss whether any particular job is worth any particular value. So I use a fictional, hypothetical world where I already know the values (because I made them up), to highlight a core point. Which is why a lot…

> You do realize I made up all of the numbers, right? Yes, I realize that. I figured out the misunderstanding. Your $10/hour figure is net value after wages ($15/hour - $5/hour), whereas I was assuming you meant gross value provided by the employee to the employer. So, at least we're on the same page regarding that now. > That reason is the value the company provides. Yeah, exactly. Labor is one of the factors of pro…

No, it is not "net value after wages". It is exactly what I said it is. It's the value the employee provides. It is not "net value - wages".

And I'm saying that explicitly, it's not up for debate.

The price of the item is the sum of all the value of all parties have put into the item. $15 is the sum of the values all parties invested. The employee invested $10 worth of value, the employer invested $5. But the employee is only getting compensated for $5 of that value because of a radical power imbalance.

Most of China is still poor.

You seem to be hung on this "better off than before" thing. And while it may be technically true, it's kind of missing the point. Something can be better than nothing and still not fair.

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