How Amazon Crushes Unions • Hacker News Board

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#31

Post by hasmolo » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

throwaway53453 wrote: post #25

blinding-streak wrote: post #4

For reference, Amazon's anti-union site: https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/

I have to say, I'm kind of creeped out by union dues. It just feels less about workers helping themselves and more like some workers creating a new power structure and job roles that they can enjoy.

without the power afforded by money to the union, it cannot stand up to the company. the dues are functionally an insurance payment for security in your job.

this comment is similar to saying:

i'm kinda creeped out by car insurance payments. it just feels less about protecting other drivers and more about enriching the insurance companies.

you are right that it does create a new power structure and job roles, that's the point of it! the money you pay is also part of the strike pay you'd get back.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#32

Post by pc86 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

blinding-streak wrote: post #3

> Amazon managers openly warned recruits that if they liked things comfortable, this would be a difficult, perhaps impossible, job. For customer service representatives, it was difficult to keep up, according to media accounts and labor organizers. Overtime was mandatory. Supervisors sent emails with subject headings like “YOU CAN SLEEP WHEN YOU’RE DEAD.” Umm, yikes.

Imagine being in a position where you have to choose between putting up with this hostile bullshit or going hungry/evicted.

Most of us here could tell our bosses to f off and either have enough savings for months (or even years), or at the very least get another job within weeks or days. Even having grown up lower-middle class with zero, often negative, extra money, going years without vacation, etc., it's hard to wrap my head around being forced to deal with abusive supervisors and coworkers because the alternative might be homelessness within weeks.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#33

Post by musingsole » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

jtdev wrote: post #7

peer2pay wrote: post #6

I hate Amazon and stories like this make me hate it even more. I stopped ordering anything from them and, if anything, this has actually improved my consumer experience. Most stuff you can buy on Amazon these days is the same garbage that is sold on Wish but you pay ~25-50% more for it to come within a couple of days. Not shopping at either has definitely raised the average life span and quality of goods in my househ…

I've made the same changes in recent months and agree that it's improved my consumer experience significantly. I didn't realize just how much time and energy I was spending sorting through cheap Chinese made junk and counterfeit garbage on Amazon trying to find quality products. In terms of cloud providers: the major three (Azure, GCloud, AWS) seem to be cut from the same cloth... maybe IBM or Oracle cloud are better…

Turning to IBM or Oracle for moral reasons is about the funniest thing I've read in a long time. One enabled the holocaust and the other made 90s-era Microsoft seem downright communist.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#34

Post by cratermoon » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

andrew_ wrote: post #29

What I don't see mentioned in the article are right-to-work states. While still effective to a degree, unions tend to have much less bite in these states. I'm left to wonder if Amazon would have the heft/ability to simply relocate all manual labor to states with right-to-work as law, or if that kind of move would be outside of union-busting laws.

> simply relocate all manual labor to states with right-to-work as law

You can't really relocate warehouses and shipping centers without throwing a wrench in the logistics of the supply chain, especially if you are in the next-day delivery business.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#35

Post by cestith » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

andrew_ wrote: post #29

What I don't see mentioned in the article are right-to-work states. While still effective to a degree, unions tend to have much less bite in these states. I'm left to wonder if Amazon would have the heft/ability to simply relocate all manual labor to states with right-to-work as law, or if that kind of move would be outside of union-busting laws.

Alabama is a right to work state. Amazon is telling people at the Bessemer warehouse that they could be forced to pay union dues whether or not they join the union, which is not true under Alabama law.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#36

Post by sct202 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

andrew_ wrote: post #29

What I don't see mentioned in the article are right-to-work states. While still effective to a degree, unions tend to have much less bite in these states. I'm left to wonder if Amazon would have the heft/ability to simply relocate all manual labor to states with right-to-work as law, or if that kind of move would be outside of union-busting laws.

They used to avoid certain states for reasons like that (also sales tax), but now that they're going for same day or 1 day delivery it isn't feasible to do that anymore. For example, Amazon didn't have any warehouses in Illinois until 2014.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#37

Post by musingsole » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

hasmolo wrote: post #31

throwaway53453 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say, I'm kind of creeped out by union dues. It just feels less about workers helping themselves and more like some workers creating a new power structure and job roles that they can enjoy.

without the power afforded by money to the union, it cannot stand up to the company. the dues are functionally an insurance payment for security in your job. this comment is similar to saying: i'm kinda creeped out by car insurance payments. it just feels less about protecting other drivers and more about enriching the insurance companies. you are right that it does create a new power structure and job roles, that's…

> i'm kinda creeped out by car insurance payments. it just feels less about protecting other drivers and more about enriching the insurance companies.

Yeah, me too! And health and homeowners insurance while we're at it. All systems seemingly meant to exploit statistics for the betterment of us all...and yet the 20 most expensive homes in my city growing up were owned by insurance execs... What an oddity!

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#38

Post by ssmiler » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

throwaway53453 wrote: post #25

blinding-streak wrote: post #4

For reference, Amazon's anti-union site: https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/

I have to say, I'm kind of creeped out by union dues. It just feels less about workers helping themselves and more like some workers creating a new power structure and job roles that they can enjoy.

A union is like a democracy, it can be elective where you can naively hope that the elected people will be honest and incorruptible or it can be participative where you must participate in the union in order for it to succeed.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#39

Post by cratermoon » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

glasss wrote: post #19

tootie wrote: post #5

Not to excuse Amazon or anything, but absolutely every company in America does this. Most of them don't bother with subterfuge though and just go with threats or firings. And one of our main political parties is vehemently anti-union and keeps winning elections.

I know a few small business owners that have said if their staff unionized they would just close the business. These aren't bad bosses or people who don't know how to run a business. They just know if their staff unionized and the rest of their industry didn't, they wouldn't be able to compete on price or keep the necessary number of staff. I think it's easier to pick on Amazon or bezos than it is to deal with the po…

> people who don't know how to run a business

I submit that if business can't exist without a government subsidy that allows them to pay their employees less than a living wage, then the people running the business do not, in fact, know how to run it.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#40

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

TurningCanadian wrote: post #23

glasss wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a few small business owners that have said if their staff unionized they would just close the business. These aren't bad bosses or people who don't know how to run a business. They just know if their staff unionized and the rest of their industry didn't, they wouldn't be able to compete on price or keep the necessary number of staff. I think it's easier to pick on Amazon or bezos than it is to deal with the po…

It's in the union's interest to keep the company alive too.

But then what is its purpose?

Management has no reason to oppose changes that cost them nothing with or without a union. In an industry with thin margins, anything that does cost them money puts them out of business. Meanwhile a union that can't achieve meaningful concessions is collecting dues for no benefit, requiring the company to pay more to retain talent and thereby putting them out of business just by existing.