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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it wasn't mentioned in the article from what I can tell but I wonder if she had any prior meditation experience. Even a weekend retreat would seem like a lot for me and I've done daily 30 minute sessions for a while. 10 days? That's pretty extreme

The report points out that even moderate meditation (more than 30 minutes per day) can have an objective negative effect on sleep quality, contraditionary to the fact that subjects often report a positive effect. (I have not found the scientific report where the statement is based on yet.)

https://www.brown.edu/academics/contemplative-studies/sites/...

I think this is the study. "Amount of MM practice was correlated with increased PSG arousals, awakenings, stage 1 and decreased SWS, in a linear dose-dependent fashion."

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#173
post #170

Long term meditation "enthusiast" who has been around many meditation traditions and also done retreats from 3 days to 3 weeks. Meditation is definitely not relaxation. In the language of Yoga (which meditative traditions share), long meditation sessions move the focus (prana) to certains parts of the body where long sustained focus can create "imbalances" and lead to breaks and other side effects (psychosis or relat…

> Feel free to DM me if you want to chat more. How can people do that if HN doesn't have DMs and you don't have any information listed on your profile?

Fixed :)

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#174
post #6

The west (and the east too) has commercialized meditation and yogic practices and reduced them to some pseudo medical amalgam that will solve all your health and mental issues. Per Hindu practices, Meditation is the first, foremost step towards self realization. For attaining liberation and knowing god. It is a tool to calm the mind and prepare it for deeper states of realization (samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi, etc). I…

> A true guru is one who has attained realization him/her self. But isn't that what all gurus say, that they are "true gurus". They would further warn you against anybody who doesn't agree with them as a "false guru"

it is up to you to decide for yourself

in cultivating discernment, you realize that you possess the capacity to identify others in the world who have the quality of amplifying the light within yourself.

however, until you come to recognize that light within, you will be susceptible to images, projections, and trickery.

ultimately, the outer guru is merely there to introduce you to your inner guru... your inner teacher. the inner teacher in the highest form of guru.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Buddhist myself, that's a poor description of Buddhism. The "suffering" the Buddha spoke about is not general pain, it's a more specific ailment. The word he used was "dukkha" which a lot of modern Buddhists argue more directly translated to "unsatisfactoriness", or as I think of it, "wishing that things were different than the way they are." That's the specific pain the Buddha teaches about and tries to help wi…

> ... overcoming the desire for things to be different than the way they actually are But didn't Buddha himself want things to be different, and that's why he started teaching?

[deleted]

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#176
I get asked about meditation every now and then from friends and their friends. Here's what I tell them:

- Meditation is not a spa treatment for the mind. Certainly not in the short-term. I'm sure there are many meditation-like activities that will bring you more immediate "calming" effects. But those aren't meditation.

- First time(s) you sit, one of your first realizations - through experience - will likely be around the impossibility of "stopping thinking." You might get into a wrestling match with your own mind. If I can't stop my own thoughts, then they aren't actually mine, right? Whose are they, then?

- This might even lead to the realization that "these thoughts aren't mine, and my life has been my thoughts, so...who the fuck am I?!!!!"

- I can't fathom a regular meditation practice that is wholly independent from any sort of intellectual study (for many, that is some version of Buddhism).

- Meditation (time on the cushion) is just a teeny tiny sliver of the entire pie. Life (off the cushion) is where the real training is.

- Awareness is not happy, it is not fun, it is not calm, it is not exciting, it is not an emotional feeling. Awareness is just awareness.

This is merely scratching the surface. But the first point is crucial. Meditation isn't some once-in-a-while activity that you do to "feel better." That's something else.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#177

Long term meditation "enthusiast" who has been around many meditation traditions and also done retreats from 3 days to 3 weeks. Meditation is definitely not relaxation. In the language of Yoga (which meditative traditions share), long meditation sessions move the focus (prana) to certains parts of the body where long sustained focus can create "imbalances" and lead to breaks and other side effects (psychosis or relat…

Replying to myself to collect some observations and responses.

- Someone noted downthread that meditation is dose-sensitive. This is is an incredibly useful observation. Most folks doing 30-60 mins of meditation a day are not at risk but doing an intensive weeks long retreat with 8-10hrs/day of cushion time is in a different risk bucket.

- Second, there were many objections to using meditation as a singular monolithic phenomenon vs. distinguishing between the varieties of meditative experiences. I have struggled with this in the past too. For the sake of this discussion let's define meditation as a purposeful focus on an object of meditation with the goal of single pointed absorption.

This definition is incomplete and inaccurate in measures. However I do think it encompasses a fair variety of meditative experiences. The object might be the breath, the flow of thoughts, mantras (prayer), visualizations or an analytical meditation. I include conscious breath work in this category - pranayama, wimhof - since you are consciously moving the breath/attention to create a heightened psychological state. Yogic/Vedic/Buddhist meditation practices - even Zazen - all ascribe to the state of one-pointed absorption, nay, union of the object and subject (shamatha/shiney).

- More importantly for us all meditations - Vipassana, Mantra-based and Yogic - can create breaks as evidenced by experiences related else where in the thread. For the sake of this discussion we can transcend the varieties and just lump them as meditation.

- Based on many conversations, I believe that meditation first amplifies the psychological makeup. If someone's mind has nervous tendencies or a tendency to mania then meditation will amplify it and bring it out. The analog of Crossfit and related intense regimens are useful here. Crossfit done without consideration for the body's deficiencies (e.g. lack of mobility in certain joints) - will lead to injury centered on the where the deficiencies lie. So if I have bad shoulder mobility, doing overhead cleans will probably cause a tear in my rotator cuff. Intense meditation has to be tailored to the individual and just like intense workout regimens, there has to be concurrent rehab of deficient areas. I unfortunately am not qualified to speak more about this.

- Benefits of Meditation: There is a notion that meditation is beneficial and can cure things that ail us. I think this is a very mistaken idea bought about by commercialization and packaging of meditation. I break down benefits from meditative practice especially retreat into the following components but would appreciate hearing more on this:

-- Greater focus. Focusing on the breath or another object greatly helps sharpen our ability to focus. This has obvious benefits in daily life rife with distractions. Greater focus also manifests as "mindfulness" or just awareness. A person who is mindful, as a result of meditation, is perceived in an interaction as present and focused. AFAIK, the world mindfulness does not occur anywhere in the Buddhist teachings and is a artefact of translation ;)

-- Dopamine fasting - Removing all stimuli for a few days in retreat and simple sustenance amplifies the senses and rewinds the hedonic adaptation treadmill. Upon exiting retreat, this leads to feelings of euphoria on encountering everyday stimuli like food or a cup of tea or a flower.

- Meditative absorption - Single pointed absorption in an object is a flow state and can be very pleasurable. Watching a sports event or a great movie is a flow experience where you forget the distinction between object and subject. Meditation makes this experience reachable on a daily/weekly basis to a accomplished meditator.

- Finally, behavior change from meditative realizations. This is function of the framework of meditation - Vipassana, Yogic, Mantra, etc. For example, if I can realize that my states of mind are transient by experience than perhaps I will be more detached from them which might give me a superpower of acting far more rationally in the face of my own fleeting passions.

In summary, meditation in an established tradition can be bring transformation, but approach it cautiously. A meditation retreat will not cure you and meditation is a journey like exercise and has to be repeated, ideally daily, to keep the benefits. The benefits might lie on the other side of a long journey.

Meditation in all traditions is a means to an end - the end being realization or one-pointedness. Meditation in the modern context is stripped from its goal and made an end in itself. Meditation on its own, sans realizations, will not heal or solve any of our problems but can offer transitory benefits.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s... not what this kind of meditation is about. Nor is that necessarily what happened. Shockingly ignorant and dismissive of you.

I read the article. > For a cumulative ten hours and forty-five minutes, she sat cross-legged on a rug, her spine erect, and tried to focus on her breath. This practice _will_ cause disassociation at some point, which is precisely what happened when she broke out into psychosis after engaging in the practice for 60+ total hours.

...so you're qualified to make that sort of statement? Got any publications to back it up for example? Concentrating on something for a cumulative 10 hours and 45 minutes is actually not uncommon in the slightest. Does everyone who focuses on something for that long disassociate? Or just people who focus on their breath? Why is it that good posture and focusing on one's breath in particular would cause 'disassociation' if that's your claim?

Maybe you go through life constantly asserting and believing things that are in no way true....with no experience nor credentials nor having even read any literature to back any of them up...

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#180
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So having a timer of say 10-15 minutes and meditating would be preferred over apps like Headspace, Calm, etc even though they have guided meditation? Isn't that risky? I don't have any medical conditions but reading this article has made me somewhat wary.

I recommend you check out Sam Harris’ “Waking Up” app. It contains a very gentle guided introduction to mediation, and has a ton of audio content which discusses meditation in its many forms and adjacent topics. If you are wary then listening to the introductory stuff should make you more informed.

Thanks. Will do.
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