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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#31

Post by mangamadaiyan »

kumarvvr wrote: post #16
asymptosis wrote: post #8

About 17 years ago I tried out some vamachara tantra exercises I found on the web. Heady stuff. It gave me a three week episode of full-blown mania. I only needed four hours sleep a night. I had this wild urge to run and jump everywhere I went. After three weeks, it culminated in an auditory hallucination that was indistinguishable from telepathy. Then the mania suddenly drained and never came back however often I re…

Really curious. Can you give more details? Vamachara stuff is forbidden and can lead to extremely dangerous reverse effects.

Who forbids it?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#32

Post by FlashBlaze »

desireco42 wrote: post #4

I would say that meditation is fine, cults are bad. It isn't easy to sit and be still, everyone who tried will tell you, you will find any kind of excuse to not do it. However if you endure it and spend some time meditating, it will indeed bring perspective and clarity in your mind. These kinds of retreats are stupid... For number of reasons. Also 'apps for meditation' are extra stupid, except maybe Oak because it is…

So having a timer of say 10-15 minutes and meditating would be preferred over apps like Headspace, Calm, etc even though they have guided meditation? Isn't that risky? I don't have any medical conditions but reading this article has made me somewhat wary.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#33

Post by bamboozled »

lukasb wrote: post #21

I have mixed feelings about the article - a lot of that has to do with the fact that over the ~10 retreats I've been on, with dozens of people that I interacted with after the retreat was over, I haven't really observed the negative affects they're talking about. However, I do agree that if you meditate for an hour a day or more (or sure, 40 minutes) having a good teacher is important. Dr. Britton put together someth…

The experience for me has been just like most others. Take weight lifting for example, you don't go into the gym and try dead lift 200 kilograms with poor technique or your liable to get hurt.

What a wise lifter might do is work their way up to the point they're ready and might enjoy lifting 200kgs and then attempt it.

Like most things, start small and work your way up. I'd imagine the same should apply to meditation.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#34

Post by tobmlt »

zozbot234 wrote: post #28
rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

"Nihilism" and "reality disconnect" is just a phase in one's progress through insight meditation; it's not the end goal. Meditation does not teach "avoidance" or even "escape" from suffering; on the contrary, it does teach deep engagement and insight. What looks from some perspectives like an 'escape' from suffering or even from life itself is more properly thought of as a reframing of one's perceptions, that gradual…

Interesting. I will check this out when I have a chance. I struggled mightily between something like Nietzsche-and-Buddhism as a kid in my 20s. Had to simply put it down one day, but it’s always been on the back burner.

“Mastering the core teachings of Buddha” may be next on my audible... we shall see

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#36

Post by bamboozled »

jrowley wrote: post #23

I have a very intelligent, kind friend who lives alone, got deep into meditation during covid, started hallucinating / getting increasinly paranoid, and ended up hospitalized for a couple of weeks and diagnosed with schizophrenia. She is doing better now but will almost certainly have to drop out of school. That's not to say meditation is a bad thing, or should be avoided, but it isn't without risk or harmless necess…

By "during covid", I guess you mean while isolating in lock down ?

I'd be more inclined to suggest it was the isolation, loneliness and stress of uncertainty that would trigger something like that. It was a dark time.

Curious if your friend started meditation hoping it might alleviate and already uncomfortable mental state, or they felt fine and just wanted to meditate for fun ?

I'm not a doctor, or psychiatrist but from the exposure I've had from my own practice, I'd imagine taking up anything other than a very, very, very light meditation course during such a stressful uncertain time could really expose one too a bit too much sensory overload.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#37

Post by thevardanian »

bin_bash wrote: post #17
rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

As a Buddhist myself, that's a poor description of Buddhism. The "suffering" the Buddha spoke about is not general pain, it's a more specific ailment. The word he used was "dukkha" which a lot of modern Buddhists argue more directly translated to "unsatisfactoriness", or as I think of it, "wishing that things were different than the way they are." That's the specific pain the Buddha teaches about and tries to help wi…

"wishing that things were different than the way they are."

That's actually one of the best ways I've heard it described.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#38

Post by zozbot234 »

tobmlt wrote: post #34
zozbot234 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nihilism" and "reality disconnect" is just a phase in one's progress through insight meditation; it's not the end goal. Meditation does not teach "avoidance" or even "escape" from suffering; on the contrary, it does teach deep engagement and insight. What looks from some perspectives like an 'escape' from suffering or even from life itself is more properly thought of as a reframing of one's perceptions, that gradual…

Interesting. I will check this out when I have a chance. I struggled mightily between something like Nietzsche-and-Buddhism as a kid in my 20s. Had to simply put it down one day, but it’s always been on the back burner. “Mastering the core teachings of Buddha” may be next on my audible... we shall see

FWIW, I don't think MCTB works well in audiobook form. The book is extremely dense and needs to be read in depth, even unpacking the meaning of a single paragraph can take some effort. It's something that you really want to have in written form if at all possible.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#40

Post by rarefied_tomato »

bin_bash wrote: post #17
rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

As a Buddhist myself, that's a poor description of Buddhism. The "suffering" the Buddha spoke about is not general pain, it's a more specific ailment. The word he used was "dukkha" which a lot of modern Buddhists argue more directly translated to "unsatisfactoriness", or as I think of it, "wishing that things were different than the way they are." That's the specific pain the Buddha teaches about and tries to help wi…

Your description of dukkha reminds me of a concept in Stoicism. Early Stoics formalized "pneuma" as something of a "natural order" or "holy ghost". The teachings were that one could avoid self-destructive behavior by not fighting an intrinsic flow to the universe.

To frame this with what I saying about Nietzsche- his criticism might have encouraged one to wrestle with natural order. Or perhaps stated that passivity with regard to the state of things is undesirable.

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