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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#21

Post by lukasb »

I have mixed feelings about the article - a lot of that has to do with the fact that over the ~10 retreats I've been on, with dozens of people that I interacted with after the retreat was over, I haven't really observed the negative affects they're talking about.

However, I do agree that if you meditate for an hour a day or more (or sure, 40 minutes) having a good teacher is important.

Dr. Britton put together something called a "Meditation Safety Toolbox" that looks really interesting, looking forward to diving into it: https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/meditation-safet...

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#22

Post by asymptosis »

kumarvvr wrote: post #16
asymptosis wrote: post #8

About 17 years ago I tried out some vamachara tantra exercises I found on the web. Heady stuff. It gave me a three week episode of full-blown mania. I only needed four hours sleep a night. I had this wild urge to run and jump everywhere I went. After three weeks, it culminated in an auditory hallucination that was indistinguishable from telepathy. Then the mania suddenly drained and never came back however often I re…

Really curious. Can you give more details? Vamachara stuff is forbidden and can lead to extremely dangerous reverse effects.

It might be forbidden within the context of certain religious paths/orders, but it's not forbidden for random people on the internet to experiment with whatever exercises they come across.

I think the site where I got it doesn't exist any more. I think I have a copy in my own archives somewhere.

The basic gist of the practices was a combination of various asanas, mantras, pranayama and visualisation.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#23

Post by jrowley »

I have a very intelligent, kind friend who lives alone, got deep into meditation during covid, started hallucinating / getting increasinly paranoid, and ended up hospitalized for a couple of weeks and diagnosed with schizophrenia. She is doing better now but will almost certainly have to drop out of school. That's not to say meditation is a bad thing, or should be avoided, but it isn't without risk or harmless necessarily either. If it can do so much good, what's to say it cannot also do bad. The mind is a powerful thing.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#24

Post by calt »

Intensive retreats aren't to be underestimated. It's a serious spiritual path that isn't designed to make one well adjusted to this world right away. I think the end result can be a fully integrated self actualized person, but the traditional view is that it might take lifetimes.

Lifetimes are not what most westerners are (or should be, imho) willing to sacrifice.

Top tier meditation institutions in the west and in Asia are not ignorant of meditation induced psychosis and they have ways of dealing with it. Everyone who claims all meditation is great and nothing bad can happen is ignorant.

Some of my most respected meditation teachers are known for recommending that people don't take up intensive retreats if they feel they have a choice in the matter. If it feel unavoidable, then do it. If it's just something you want to try, don't. I can immediately recall at least 4 saying this.

However, if 20 minutes of mindfulness a day sets you off into strange psychological territory, then I have a hard time believing that meditation was at fault. The "dosage" simply isn't high enough to be the key factor.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#25

Post by Zelphyr »

rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

I can’t speak to what Nietzsche said or didn’t say, but anyone who says Stoicism or Buddhism is about avoiding suffering understands neither.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#26

Post by asymptosis »

tartoran wrote: post #18
asymptosis wrote: post #8

About 17 years ago I tried out some vamachara tantra exercises I found on the web. Heady stuff. It gave me a three week episode of full-blown mania. I only needed four hours sleep a night. I had this wild urge to run and jump everywhere I went. After three weeks, it culminated in an auditory hallucination that was indistinguishable from telepathy. Then the mania suddenly drained and never came back however often I re…

Perhaps this was one of the many possible triggers and not a cause. It’s possible that some stressful events in your life would trigger something similar at a later date. The thing is that once such an episode happens one learns about some limits and how to stay away from them. How is your health now? I used to have some slight hypomanic states which were very productive and creative but would end up with a depressed…

Thanks for the question. My mental health these days is usually okay, although drinking too much is a problem for me, along with intermittent insomnia and depression. Having a stable income helps, and I live a lifestyle which doesn't invite much stress.

Glad to hear you're also feeling better these days :)

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#27

Post by powersnail »

rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

There are also the factors that the person stopped taking her meds and didn't sleep for a long time before the mental break down.

When I was a kid, I thought about nihilism a lot, but I don't think thinking about it brought any adverse effect on my mental development or day-to-day behavior. "What is one life compared to the vast cosmos" I would ask myself such questions and feel very lost, but when lunch time comes, I knew I was hungry and I went to eat.

I suspect that the physiological factors contributes more to such psychosis as described in the article, than the idea of nihilism or Buddhism. The underlying mental condition, sleep deprivation, the vicissitude of her life, the exhaustion from sitting still, the sudden brake on taking meds... One of those would drive some people crazy, and she had them all.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#28

Post by zozbot234 »

rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

"Nihilism" and "reality disconnect" is just a phase in one's progress through insight meditation; it's not the end goal. Meditation does not teach "avoidance" or even "escape" from suffering; on the contrary, it does teach deep engagement and insight. What looks from some perspectives like an 'escape' from suffering or even from life itself is more properly thought of as a reframing of one's perceptions, that gradually becomes better aligned with their proper nature and therefore less prone to fruitless attachment and craving.

Daniel M. Ingram is especially clear on these issues BTW, and his writings in general are a good introduction to insight meditation as it's actually practiced by those who seek some form of stream entry.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#29

Post by travisjungroth »

calt wrote: post #24

Intensive retreats aren't to be underestimated. It's a serious spiritual path that isn't designed to make one well adjusted to this world right away. I think the end result can be a fully integrated self actualized person, but the traditional view is that it might take lifetimes. Lifetimes are not what most westerners are (or should be, imho) willing to sacrifice. Top tier meditation institutions in the west and in A…

> Everyone who claims all meditation is great and nothing bad can happen is ignorant.

Or lying. I doubt the meditation center in the article updated the claims on their site after these events.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#30

Post by sn41 »

rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

I tried Stoicism earnestly for some time, reading Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus. What I found was actually a "nonchalance" enveloping me, where I lost any willpower or determination or urgency to do anything. It sure felt good. But activities and deadlines were slipping. I had to literally talk myself back into caring. I wonder if anyone else had similar experiences. Whenever I raise this point, some one says I did not really get it. Perhaps. But I did try it as per my understanding. It increased equanimity, but decreased my motivation and drive.

(As an aside, "sloth", which is one of the seven deadly sins, was originally "acedia", is a feeling of a lack of concern. [1])

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia

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