Live data from Hacker News

Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

harpers.org

71–80 of 289 posts

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#71

I would say that meditation is fine, cults are bad. It isn't easy to sit and be still, everyone who tried will tell you, you will find any kind of excuse to not do it. However if you endure it and spend some time meditating, it will indeed bring perspective and clarity in your mind. These kinds of retreats are stupid... For number of reasons. Also 'apps for meditation' are extra stupid, except maybe Oak because it is…

So having a timer of say 10-15 minutes and meditating would be preferred over apps like Headspace, Calm, etc even though they have guided meditation? Isn't that risky? I don't have any medical conditions but reading this article has made me somewhat wary.

I recommend you check out Sam Harris’ “Waking Up” app. It contains a very gentle guided introduction to mediation, and has a ton of audio content which discusses meditation in its many forms and adjacent topics. If you are wary then listening to the introductory stuff should make you more informed.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#72

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

As a Buddhist myself, that's a poor description of Buddhism. The "suffering" the Buddha spoke about is not general pain, it's a more specific ailment. The word he used was "dukkha" which a lot of modern Buddhists argue more directly translated to "unsatisfactoriness", or as I think of it, "wishing that things were different than the way they are." That's the specific pain the Buddha teaches about and tries to help wi…

> ... overcoming the desire for things to be different than the way they actually are

But didn't Buddha himself want things to be different, and that's why he started teaching?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#73

> Megan mentioned that she had stopped taking her medication. She had been on the lowest therapeutic dose of Zoloft for mild anxiety since her early twenties. Zoloft can really mess you up if you stop cold-turkey. How odd that they didn't bring up comorbid risk-factors until half-way through the article.

Talk about burying the lede. I was on a low dose of Zoloft for only a few months, and the brain zaps* I experienced when I stopped were resoundingly unpleasant, and lasted for several weeks. I could easily picture someone in an already fragile mental state being pushed over the edge because of them.

(*that's what the phenomenon is called: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-superhuman-mind/...)

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#74

Meditation is a pretty broad term encompassing many different activities/intentions (though they all look pretty similar from the outside). In the studies I’ve read on the adverse effects of meditation, the style has a major influence. Due to historical accidents, vipassana is a common style in the West - I find this mind blowing, since it is probably the most likely to cause adverse effects. As a long time meditator…

When I started meditating I also was introduced via Theravada based vipassana and eventually felt the need to give it up after having some strange things come up and also falling into the nihilism trap I think is common to hit. Thankfully years later I encountered Mahayana teachings and it clarified a ton for me, letting me restart my practice. That’s all to say I think it’s important that people take it slow and get…

It's an interesting natural experiment, that will help us learn what is essential and what is merely incidental. A human sacrifice to gain wisdom..

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#75
Reminds me a lot of "the dark night of the soul" as described in "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" by Daniel Ingram (the book is online at https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/).

Scott Alexander did a great book review if you want the summary: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/18/book-review-mastering-...

This finishes with a Scott-at-his-best quote that is pertinent to the OP:

> Why would you want to do any of this?

> The Buddha is supposed to have said: “I gained nothing whatsoever from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment”. And sure, that’s the enigmatic Zen-sounding sort of statement we expect from our spiritual leaders. But if Buddhist practice is really difficult, and makes you perceive every single sensation as profoundly unsatisfactory in some hard-to-define way, and can plunge you into a neverending depression which you might get out of if you meditate hard enough, and then gives you a sort of permanent annoying low-grade bipolar disorder even if you succeed, then we’re going to need something better than pithy quotes...

> Once he’s stripped everything else away, he says the only thing one can say about enlightenment is that it grants a powerful true experience of the non-dual nature of the world.

> But still, why would we want to get that? I am super in favor of knowledge-for-knowledge’s-sake, but I’ve also read enough Lovecraft to have strong opinions about poking around Ultimate Reality in ways that tend to destroy your mental health.

Worth noting that as far as I can tell most of the meditation community doesn't get behind Ingram's account of the "dark night", and teachers talk more about having blissful/tranquil mental states available on tap. Ingram might retort that most teachers are full of shit and haven't attained enlightenment, they probably just got first Jhana.

Most people round here would probably read the "fire kasina" and magick stuff that he's talking about after "14 hours per day for 10-20 days in good practice conditions with full, unbridled, undistracted effort." and think -- yep, that sounds like a psychologically risky state.

My general take is basically the same as with using psychedelics for treating trauma and depression; any medicine which is powerful enough to modify your mind and cure major structural issues is also powerful enough to break your mind, if you're unlucky/unskilled/unguided in the application.

The (completely incorrect) Western image of deep meditation as "deep relaxation" is a big problem here, and that's compounded by it being quite awkward to actually claim you're enlightened, which makes it hard to credential-check your teachers; most people straight up call BS on such claims. From the little meditation I've done, I think it's more likely than not that "cessation" / "enlightenment" is a real mental phenomenon, but I'm not sure that it's actually worth dedicating a decade or two of your life to attain.

Having said all that, light meditation / mindfulness practice is well-documented as being beneficial, so if it's helping you don't stop; just don't feel you need to constantly increase your sit durations and go deeper, if you're not doing so with a specific goal in mind and ideally a community to support you.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#76
post #30

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

I tried Stoicism earnestly for some time, reading Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus. What I found was actually a "nonchalance" enveloping me, where I lost any willpower or determination or urgency to do anything. It sure felt good. But activities and deadlines were slipping. I had to literally talk myself back into caring. I wonder if anyone else had similar experiences. Whenever I raise this point, some one says I did n…

"You can pass your life in an equable flow of happiness, if you can go by the right way, and think and act in the right way."

The "think in the right way" takes just a little practice. The "act in the right way" is the hard part, and the whole thing falls apart, in exactly the way you've noticed, without both. I've yet to achieve both, personally, though simply having "think the right way", with a little moderating wisdom from age, isn't nothing.

I think a trap in general with systems like Stoicism, or Zen Buddhism, or similar, is believing that thinking or knowing is anything more than one maybe-necessary-but-certainly-not-sufficient step.

(frankly, I'm not even sure what "go by the right way" means, yet, and would have to return to the original Greek to figure out whether it's just a summation of the two following ideas, or something separate—however, as I'm still working on "acting", I'll leave that for another day)

[EDIT] For those reading this without having read Meditations, it's heavy on duty and obligation, which is deep in the "doing" side of the above dichotomy. The "think the right way" is largely about ignoring that which one cannot control, but the trouble is that anything in the immediate past becomes "beyond one's control", which is where the parent's slipped-deadlines and such become easy to brush off without the duty-and-obligation and act-the-right-way habits balancing it out. Can absofuckinglutely confirm that if you get very good at the "think the right way" side, and only that side, it gets dangerously easy to not be bothered by failure or inaction.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#77

Glad to see this article explore the darker side of meditation. A few years back, I had a sobering experience at a Vipassana meditation retreat and left after a few days. I had feelings of anxiety and despair, which I expected (at least intellectually), but when I started to have suicidal thoughts, I decided it was time to get out. While the Goenka retreats profess to be secular and for everyone, I got serious cult v…

Valid concerns about meditation induced psychosis aside, I think you're mischaracterising many aspects of the retreat.

> Technically, the in-person instructors are only assistant teachers. There is only one true teacher: Goenka himself.

There are some actual teachers that tour the globe. But mostly it's ATs. I think there's a lot of hoops to jump through to become a teacher. And I believe the ATs also must be able to jump in and teach if equipment fails.

> During his nightly instruction via VHS tape - the only human interaction you're allowed all day

You can meet with the AT one-on-one to discuss anything in the middle of the day. You can sit before the AT after the last meditation and ask questions.

> Goenka teaches Buddhist metaphysics (I recall something about vibrations of the universe).

Much of what he says is based on teachings 2500+ years old when philosophers didn't know what atoms were, but were thinking about what the most sub-divisible thing was. I heard it put this way, 'The course should be taken seriously, but not literally.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism

> Then, at the end of the retreat you're hit with a love bomb on the way out the door.

They teach 'metta' at the end. Which is not so much being love-bombed, but you meditating on loving-kindness to others.

I'm glad you got out when you did.

Edit: Fixed a quote + clarification

Edit: Why the downvote, did I say something that wasn't factual?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was it: https://web.archive.org/web/20040612155253/http://www.kamaka...

You sure it wasn’t the text color/background combination that caused your psychotic break?

hahaha :D

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#79
post #75

Reminds me a lot of "the dark night of the soul" as described in "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" by Daniel Ingram (the book is online at https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/ ). Scott Alexander did a great book review if you want the summary: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/18/book-review-mastering-... This finishes with a Scott-at-his-best quote that is pertinent to the OP: > Why would you want to do any of th…

Lovecraft didn’t actually have any special insight into ultimate reality. He was at least a little bit crazy. Not really a good reference for any of this.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#80
The woman in the article was withdrawing from Zoloft during a very stressful time and went to meditate for 10 hours a day. It is not a surprise she had a psychotic break. Disregarding we have hidden memories that are locked away, it is established that our minds suppress troubling memories. After a long meditation time, they can come out. In my personal experience, I have had to discontinue sessions due to bad memories arising.
Post reply on HN