Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#121

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

anonymou2 wrote: post #57

3grdlurker wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to prevent large, billion+ dollar corporations from existing is via highly intrusive state regulation, so people who are appalled by the monopolistic and authoritarian behaviors of big tech should really be asking themselves (1) whether they are against capitalism, because there isn’t a model of optimizing economies for market freedom and profit that disallows the existence of billion/trillion dollar com…

What I find amazing is that in this capitalist world, these companies are really against private property (yours, not theirs) I am not sure if private property is in the definition of capitalism, probably not, so there may be no contradiction. But still it is really amazing.

It's ironic, because the delineation[1] between personal and private property is often blurred by capitalism, yet it is laid bare in this example.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property#Personal_ver...

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#122

Post by asciimov » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

alerighi wrote: post #90

jsperson wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I spend 0% of my time managing iOS devices for my parents and am constantly bombarded with issues from my in-laws with Android phones. I agree that some of Apple's behavior is monopolistic and has some unfortunate, possibly unforeseen consequences, but the end result is pretty nice for the consumers who are willing to accept the compromise.

Not true, it depends on what one is used to. My father for example always used Android, now he got an iPhone and he find it more difficult to use, to the point that it asks me even trivial things. It's a myth that iOS is more simple to use than Android, there are things that are more complicated.

Biggest headache that Apple has solved is updates. They are very clear if a phone is still supported or not.

The following is a conversation I had with a relative, while trying to troubleshoot their phone.

Q: "Why doesn't my Bank App work?"

Me: [after many steps]"Because you need to update your OS"

Q: "How do I do that?"

Me: [many steps later] "Sorry you can't update your OS. You will need a new phone."

Q: "But this phone is only a year old."

Me: "The phone had been out for over a year before you got it. The [manufacturer] stopped updating it. You have to get a new phone to use your Banking app."

Q: "But new phones are so expensive, my phone is still plenty fast, and the battery lasts all day, why do I need to get a new phone?"

Me: "The manufacturer stops making updates to make you buy a new phone from them."

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#123

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

robmusial wrote: post #96

imwillofficial wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? That’s how I want it. If you want viruses distributed by your App Store, go for it, Android is waiting for you. I want a tightly regulated relatively well run platform, not an open one. My phone is mission critical. There isn’t an open platform that can handle that responsibility, like say, Linux in the Cloud.

Isn’t the sensible option then to allow third party app stores? If you want a tightly regulated environment only stick to the official channels. Apple can continue to charge their premium for that.

[deleted]

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#124

Post by nvrspyx » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

ziml77 wrote: post #75

bogwog wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're also leaving out that the VPN is just one part of the larger "Librem One" subscription package. It's something customers discover through Librem's marketing, buy from Librem on Librem's website not using Apple's payment/account systems, and not exclusive to Apple platforms in any way. Yet Apple is forcing them to give up 30% of their revenue, because they can.

They want the experience to be that if you download an app that needs payment to function, it's possible to pay using the same payment flow as everything else. You don't have to hand over your payment information to a third party. Maybe Apple needs to make changes to allow apps that are only a part of a service instead of the main selling point of the service to bypass those rules? Seems like it would be tough to fig…

Crazy how that doesn't apply to Amazon (and Audible) or Netflix /s

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#125

Post by Daho0n » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

MikeUt wrote: post #63

jsperson wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I spend 0% of my time managing iOS devices for my parents and am constantly bombarded with issues from my in-laws with Android phones. I agree that some of Apple's behavior is monopolistic and has some unfortunate, possibly unforeseen consequences, but the end result is pretty nice for the consumers who are willing to accept the compromise.

> compromise This is not an inherent compromise. iPhones could be just as safe and issue-free if they were rootable, just as cars don't need hoods welded shut to prevent their owners from messing with the engine. If you find the compromise acceptable, simply don't root your phone.

A car analogy that works! Good job, this is a rare sight indeed :)

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#126

Post by tgragnato » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

alerighi wrote: post #93

tgragnato wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tunnelblick uses OpenVPN under the hood, which means it's using a TUN/TAP virtual NIC. LeoPantera is referring to the new way of creating VPNs in macOS and iOS, the Network Extension framework. You need an entitlement to develop with that framework, and sideloading is not possible. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension https://developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/en... I have no idea…

Well the Wireguard app exists both for macOS and iOS so I guess is not that big deal to support VPN on these systems. Also services like this one to circumvent the Apple policy couldn't just give you a Wireguard configuration file and say to you "just install the Wireguard app and import the config"? It would work and of course Apple couldn't do anything (beside removing the whole Wireguard app from the store).

That’s what I do too.

Not having entitlements or not being able to sideload is more of an issue while trying to tweak or patch an existing code base.

E.g.: contributing to WireGuard or iCepa, ...

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#127

Post by marcus_holmes » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

ehutch79 wrote: post #99

Barrin92 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always amazed that in the land of the brave and free butchering general purpose computing machines is supposed to be justified by the fact grandma doesn't install the wrong apps. Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong toolbar? It's like the reverse 'but think of the children', and pe…

there are absolutely controls you can turn on for macs that will do that. I have locked down employees computers because they couldn't be trusted.

I'm always curious about this attitude. Why did you employ them if you felt you couldn't trust them?

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#128

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

A few years ago, I got my grandmother an iPad. She used it for years until she passed. I just powered it on yesterday and it now "requires activation", which won't complete via WiFi. All the data on it, e.g. pictures, is now inaccessible. It is, effectively, bricked. I'll sooner eat a pile of shit before I ever touch or recommend another Apple product again. Edit: To clarify, it was never locked or password protected…

I left an iPad on a shelf for more than a year. During that time, Apple must have done migrations with iCloud and Apple accounts, and completely deleted the account the iPad was signed in under. I couldn't unlock the iPad, and I even tried re-registering a new account using the same email address and password that I had originally used. Didn't work at all, and it's still a paperweight.

I'm just lucky in that I didn't have any important data like pictures, passwords or 2FA apps on it. Sorry for your loss.

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#129

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #12

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

A few years ago, I got my grandmother an iPad. She used it for years until she passed. I just powered it on yesterday and it now "requires activation", which won't complete via WiFi. All the data on it, e.g. pictures, is now inaccessible. It is, effectively, bricked. I'll sooner eat a pile of shit before I ever touch or recommend another Apple product again. Edit: To clarify, it was never locked or password protected…

"Apple won't let me to break into an iPad I don't own" isn't as bad as you are trying to make it seem. In other words, why are you surprised that you can't hack into an Apple device?

If they were the executor of the estate or heir, then it is their property for liquidation or their own use.

Re: Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS

#130

Post by spideymans » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

ratww wrote: post #111

Barrin92 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always amazed that in the land of the brave and free butchering general purpose computing machines is supposed to be justified by the fact grandma doesn't install the wrong apps. Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong toolbar? It's like the reverse 'but think of the children', and pe…

It's not about grandma. I also don't want to deal with bullshit myself. - In the country I grew up I have to install rootkits in my computer in order to use the bank website. Some of them are borderline impossible to uninstall, and some banks have rootkits that conflicted with the ones of other banks. How do I know if it's not spying on me or not? It's a multi-megabyte kernel extension. I can't even use Linux or a Vi…

On Mac and Windows, I have to think twice about whatever applications I install because, as you said, any application could royally screw with the system.

On iOS I can download effectively whatever I like from the App Store without worrying about it screwing up my system. That peace of mind is worth a lot of money, and is why people pay a premium to be in this walled garden.

I have no desire for for my iPhone to have the same threats presented to my Mac or PC. I also have no desire for my Mac or PC to be as locked down as my iPhone. There is room in the market for both. Trying to legislatively eliminate this option is ridiculous. If you don't like the device's security policy, then don't buy it.