How Amazon Crushes Unions • Hacker News Board

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#201

Post by Judgmentality » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

tidepod12 wrote: post #166

former-aws wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does AWS. They include revenue from AWS Workmail and other SaaS offerings. Too bad MSFT or GOOG make more money than AWS with their SaaS or "Productive" offerings.

This is probably true, but such a laughably small number of people use Workmail that I doubt it has any material difference to AWS's reported numbers, so while they might not reflect the true AWS marketshare sans-Workmail, it's probably still in the same ballpark. The reason people bring it up in regards to Azure is because it does likely artificially inflate Azure's reported numbers a material amount and makes them…

I don't know for sure, but I'd guess MS Office makes up most of the revenue for their cloud offerings. Honestly I think their cloud is mostly a service to push MS Office harder, and they seem to be doing quite well for that.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#202

Post by ev1 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

Daho0n wrote: post #62

nafizh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate where do you buy things online from? I want to move away from Amazon, but it's also exhausting to sort through multiple websites for a product, their shipping fees, and make decisions.

I'm not in the US but to me Amazon is something I use maybe twice a year and I buy a lot online and abroad. I even order stuff from the US sometimes and I don't normally use Amazon (or eBay). I don't get why it is so hard to cut out the middleman (Amazon) when it isn't to me when I order from the US. If I find the product on Amazon I just click on to the retailers website and order there.

I'm in the middle of a dense urban area (San Francisco) without a car, and cannot get delivery to home (items are stolen within Amazon is the only vendor with 24 hour lockers for pickup - multiple locations within walking distance. There is no Walmart nearby. There is a Target but the pickup line is basically standing in plague-town for an hour, ~25 min away by bus. Best Buy is about 40-45 min away by bus (you will probably be mugged if you are seen with a BB bag).

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#203

Post by nickpp » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #188

nickpp wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the alternative was better education and more focus during one's formative years. It's not my fault the kids skipping class, having fun and making jokes during teacher's lessons are now paid less than me. Society offers plenty of opportunities but not to people who did noting to prepare themselves to take advantage of them.

It's not my fault the kids skipping class, having fun and making jokes during teacher's lessons are now paid less than me. If that's how you think people become poor and desperate, I can only surmise that you've never had anything bad happen to you ever. Never got sick. Never had a family member hurt. Never been the victim of crime. Never fallen on a wet floor. Never had a house fire. Never had your car break down. Y…

Yes, life has hardships, but please do not tell me they are the ones controlling its course and your choices don't matter.

For hardships you can buy insurance with money or time (family, friends, various organisations) but your choices are entirely your responsibility and there is no way to insure yourself against making the wrong ones.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#204

Post by andrew_ » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #34

andrew_ wrote: post #29

What I don't see mentioned in the article are right-to-work states. While still effective to a degree, unions tend to have much less bite in these states. I'm left to wonder if Amazon would have the heft/ability to simply relocate all manual labor to states with right-to-work as law, or if that kind of move would be outside of union-busting laws.

> simply relocate all manual labor to states with right-to-work as law You can't really relocate warehouses and shipping centers without throwing a wrench in the logistics of the supply chain, especially if you are in the next-day delivery business.

I've worked several years in the logistics sector and watched as that happened several times during inclement weather cycles. The logistics supply chain is much more nimble than you might think.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#205

Post by nickpp » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #194

nickpp wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it didn't go to "the rich". The generated wealth went to funders, investors and employees with stocks. That made some of them rich. But today anybody can own stock in companies so I guess everybody had the opportunity to enjoy those gains.

I told you to look it up, and you didn't even bother. You're so convinced that your own infallible logic is all you need. You don't need reality. You don't need evidence. I guess this sort of thing is all just made up: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/8/16112368/pi... Why do you even bother coming to the internet if you already know everything? I bet, I bet you think of yourself as hyper-rational. That…

I don't need to look up that argument because it is well known, it shows up here pretty much on every discussion on this topic. It's repetitive, it's boring. And it is wrong. It doesn't say much and worse, it does not explain anything. It is so open to interpretation that is useless. Using it in an argument is intellectually lazy. But so is saying "rich people take all the wealth".

The free market and being rational are tools that are proven to work. They brought all the advances we enjoy every day in our life. I am eager to learn the other tools you propose instead.

Oh, and of course I am aware of Piketty. I also know he is wrong, laughably and demonstrably so. Not the first economist to be wrong, anyway. Turns out being well known doesn't make you right - kind of like Marx I guess.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#206

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #151

capableweb wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers say things like "By taking the job, you confirm the wage is right." and then wonder why everyone thinks programmers are emotionally cold. Yes, by pure math and market economics, I guess you might be right. But by hearth, I'm sure even you realize that it's not that black and white in reality.

If it's not that black and white, why not explain how rather than invoking negative programmer stereotypes?

The answer is exactly what you (likely) suspect:

* Most labour isn't high value

* Western workers have an expectation of a high standard of living that grew out of post-War economic expansion

* Employer/Employee relations are asymmetric: the former has greater market power to influence pricing than the latter

* Fairness in human relations is an independent notion from the economic clearing price, cf. The Dictator Game

* The most effective techniques at causing change involve at least some appeals to emotion or outrage

Put this together and you'll get this thread.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#207

Post by freedom42 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

nickpp wrote: post #200

pietrovismara wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree that education is fundamental for everyone to have, but not simply to allow everyone to have a good job. Just because it would make society so much better for everyone. For this reason I'm also convinced that every single kid should have access to the same high quality education, independently from how much their family pushes them to it. I'm also convinced that people should have the chance to get back…

You are forgetting defaults and motivations in humans. By default, my kids would spend all day playing Minecraft. They do not have the motivation to do anything else. I have to stay on their ass and push them to study. I am motivated to do that because I know how crappy low-level jobs are (I had one). Otherwise my default would be to let them do whatever they want. I love them! A society which removes the motivation…

You got some reasons. But the picture as a whole is different. Many can't make enough money to take care of their loved ones. Many are not lucky to have a grandma that pushed their dad to study. Also one doesn't need to be burned by fire to know it's dangerous.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#208

Post by nickpp » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

freedom42 wrote: post #207

nickpp wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are forgetting defaults and motivations in humans. By default, my kids would spend all day playing Minecraft. They do not have the motivation to do anything else. I have to stay on their ass and push them to study. I am motivated to do that because I know how crappy low-level jobs are (I had one). Otherwise my default would be to let them do whatever they want. I love them! A society which removes the motivation…

You got some reasons. But the picture as a whole is different. Many can't make enough money to take care of their loved ones. Many are not lucky to have a grandma that pushed their dad to study. Also one doesn't need to be burned by fire to know it's dangerous.

Yes and as a society we should increase the number of such "grandmother events", not to remove the very reason mine existed in the first place. A society without competitiveness will fail.

And I don't know a better way to teach most people that fire is dangerous than a controlled burn...

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#209

Post by ipsocannibal » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

The union drive Amazon is truely scared of is not of warehouse workers, its of their very hard to replace, highly skilled tech workers. FC workers are on the path to elimination through reliance on robotics. The last steps to full automation, automating picking and packing, are being chipped away by new boxing machines for example. Amazon currently estimates it could have the tech to fully automate all FC's in about 10 years. However, Amazon knows that if FC workers can beat them then other groups are soon to follow, groups with much more education, resources, political connections, and leverage. This is why they fired Emily Cunningham and Maren Costa over their tweats. They needed to show tech workers that if you publically support FC workers in their drive for better working conditions you will be fired. If you want to really bring Amazon to heel then unionize the tech workers.

Refs: 1. https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-reportedly-uses-boxing-mach...

2. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-warehouse-idUS...

3. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/04/13/amazon-...

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#210

Post by Chris2048 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 8:21 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #206

Chris2048 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not that black and white, why not explain how rather than invoking negative programmer stereotypes?

The answer is exactly what you (likely) suspect: * Most labour isn't high value * Western workers have an expectation of a high standard of living that grew out of post-War economic expansion * Employer/Employee relations are asymmetric: the former has greater market power to influence pricing than the latter * Fairness in human relations is an independent notion from the economic clearing price, cf. The Dictator Gam…

I follow the first 3 points, but not the latter 2.

1) employee / employer relations are not "human relations"; Actual human relationships involve transactions that are more than just monetary. A corporation offering jobs in a location is not otherwise involved in the economics of that place.

2) "The most effective techniques at causing change involve at least some appeals to emotion or outrage"

What techniques/changes? political?

Plenty techniques involving emotion or outrage are among the least effective too.