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The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

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Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#41

Post by Y_Y »

kirse wrote: post #11
hedgew wrote: post #2

OODA loop is often hyped, but really it is just a description of how humans (and animals) behave in almost any situation. "Look, Think, Decide, Act" in other words. It's not valuable in the sense that you can "practice" or "apply" the loop and perform better. Your behavior already follows this model. Its real value probably came from presenting this common decision making process in a way that appealed to upper milit…

That's a bit underselling it, like saying "E = mc^2 is just a description of how light behaves" and sweeping it under the rug as if the explanatory model provides no additional benefit. The value comes from the ability to consciously influence the various stages of the process instead of it simply being subconsciously driven. In fact, you can practice and apply the stages of the loop better - for example, making a li…

It not a description of how light behaves at all.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#42

Post by retrocryptid »

beaconstudios wrote: post #36

The OODA loop is just entry-level cybernetics; it describes a single (negative/balancing/homeostatic) feedback loop. Knowing OODA is a good start for learning about the mechanics of self correcting systems but for some reason cybernetics doesn't come up often in association with it. It's like learning how to code a todo list but not knowing that more advanced programs are possible because you're not aware that what y…

There's source material the FS blog isn't giving you. You probably want to read that before saying "OODA is just Cybernetics." Having read both Norbert Weiner and John Boyd, I can assure you there's more to it than what's presented by the fs.blog link. Though... yes... Cybernetics cut a swath through Systems Command in the 60s and 70s, but if you slog through dissertations at the Air War College, you'll find several critiques of Cybernetics for it's lack of descriptive power in an environment with incomplete information.

See Lind's Manouver Warfare Handbook for more details.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#43

Post by ghgdynb1 »

dheera wrote: post #34
nateberkopec wrote: post #7

For anyone interested in OODA, the Robert Coram biography of John Boyd, and "Certain to Win" by the Boyd disciple Chet Richards are good entry points. The value of OODA isn't really in providing a model for individual-level decisionmaking. The value is as a model for intra-organizational conflict: that one obtains strategic advantage (i.e. tempo) by running through one's OODA loop faster than competitors or opponents…

I'm unclear as to what's novel about OODA. Can someone give me an alternative model for context? It seems like all other permutations, e.g. DOAO or ADOO or DOOA wouldn't make sense, so what is the "eureka" about OODA? Also, separately, it just sounds to me like perception (OO), planning (D), control (A) renamed so I'm still not seeing what's novel about it.

I'm not sure, I'm not an expert in this and I've never been in the military.

However, I bet there's little to nothing uniquely good about OODA over the alternatives you mention. My guess is that having a standardized rapid decision making framework is valuable compared to the frantic scramble that might take place otherwise.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#44

Post by beaconstudios »

retrocryptid wrote: post #42
beaconstudios wrote: post #36

The OODA loop is just entry-level cybernetics; it describes a single (negative/balancing/homeostatic) feedback loop. Knowing OODA is a good start for learning about the mechanics of self correcting systems but for some reason cybernetics doesn't come up often in association with it. It's like learning how to code a todo list but not knowing that more advanced programs are possible because you're not aware that what y…

There's source material the FS blog isn't giving you. You probably want to read that before saying "OODA is just Cybernetics." Having read both Norbert Weiner and John Boyd, I can assure you there's more to it than what's presented by the fs.blog link. Though... yes... Cybernetics cut a swath through Systems Command in the 60s and 70s, but if you slog through dissertations at the Air War College, you'll find several…

Thanks, I'll check it out. For what it's worth I agree that cybernetics alone isn't as useful for describing complex systems as it is for designing adaptive processes like OODA. That's more the realm of systems dynamics and causal analysis.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#45

Post by 7402 »

"Gödel’s theorems, Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics"

Bah. It drives me crazy when people use scientific or mathematical principles as psychological metaphors, without understanding what the principles actually mean. They usually get it wrong.

When you apply the Uncertainty Principle to a flying airplane, it implies the exact opposite of what the author thinks it does. A fighter jet is a macroscopic object. Assuming I recall my college physics correctly, if the velocity of the plane is "only" known to within a quintillionth of a m/s, then the position is "only" knowable within a few hundredths of a quintillionth of a meter.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#46

Post by karmakaze »

dheera wrote: post #34
nateberkopec wrote: post #7

For anyone interested in OODA, the Robert Coram biography of John Boyd, and "Certain to Win" by the Boyd disciple Chet Richards are good entry points. The value of OODA isn't really in providing a model for individual-level decisionmaking. The value is as a model for intra-organizational conflict: that one obtains strategic advantage (i.e. tempo) by running through one's OODA loop faster than competitors or opponents…

I'm unclear as to what's novel about OODA. Can someone give me an alternative model for context? It seems like all other permutations, e.g. DOAO or ADOO or DOOA wouldn't make sense, so what is the "eureka" about OODA? Also, separately, it just sounds to me like perception (OO), planning (D), control (A) renamed so I'm still not seeing what's novel about it.

These two lines show how this is a dynamic interactive activity--like there are tight and loose loops continuously updating the decision making processes. Sort of like agile vs waterfall.

> “Orientation isn’t just a state you’re in; it’s a process. You’re always orienting.” —John Boyd

> The second stage of the OODA Loop, orient, is less intuitive than the other steps. [...]

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#48

Post by Jtsummers »

dheera wrote: post #34
nateberkopec wrote: post #7

For anyone interested in OODA, the Robert Coram biography of John Boyd, and "Certain to Win" by the Boyd disciple Chet Richards are good entry points. The value of OODA isn't really in providing a model for individual-level decisionmaking. The value is as a model for intra-organizational conflict: that one obtains strategic advantage (i.e. tempo) by running through one's OODA loop faster than competitors or opponents…

I'm unclear as to what's novel about OODA. Can someone give me an alternative model for context? It seems like all other permutations, e.g. DOAO or ADOO or DOOA wouldn't make sense, so what is the "eureka" about OODA? Also, separately, it just sounds to me like perception (OO), planning (D), control (A) renamed so I'm still not seeing what's novel about it.

The eureka was giving it a name in order to articulate its importance in tactical and strategic thinking. That's really it. Other people, throughout history, have operated in the same fashion but either not described what they did or described it in different terms.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#49

Post by arethuza »

JshWright wrote: post #33
arethuza wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure I have met people who tended to do "Act, Look, Think, Decide" in that order! i.e. Do something daft, look at what they had done, think about the consequences and decide whether to admit to the mistake ;-)

As long as you keep the "act" small in scale (and you continue to loop through the steps), this is probably the best approach in most circumstances. If for no other reason than is break you out of the initial tendency many people have to freeze when confronted with crisis.

I'm sure I've been told by someone who had been trained as an officer in the British army that they were very much trained to have a "Bias for Action" - i.e. the worst thing you could in most situations would be to get caught in their version of "analysis paralysis". Of course, he told me this with impeccable self deprecating humour (presumably also part of their training) - so difficult to tell how serious he was being.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#50

Post by thethimble »

7402 wrote: post #45

"Gödel’s theorems, Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics" Bah. It drives me crazy when people use scientific or mathematical principles as psychological metaphors, without understanding what the principles actually mean. They usually get it wrong. When you apply the Uncertainty Principle to a flying airplane, it implies the exact opposite of what the author thinks it does. A fighter…

Maybe better would have been "Bayesian Inference"?
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