Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

sciencemag.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 60 posts

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#51

Post by kergonath »

boudin wrote: post #15
bpodgursky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know these territories regularly vote on independence, right? https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/375335/tahi... And the answer is usually "no", because most of these islands are poor and get net funding and support from France (or whatever other country holds sovereignty).

If you're talking about New Caledonia it's as really biased view. It was a special agreement following a stron crisis with the Kanak independance mouvement that allowed to agree on 3 independance votes. There's a big difference in votes between the people from metropolitan France and a much stronger support for independance in the Kanak population. We'll see next year what's the result is going to be, but the last on…

Mururoa is not in New Caledonia. The situations of French Polynesia and New Caledonia are quite different for a whole bunch of reasons.

I am not quite sure what you mean by “other territories do not have the opportunity to vote in their independence”. French Polynesia has its own parliament and government, which has been dominated by “independentists” for quite a while. Nothing is stopping them from holding a referendum every other year, just like in New Caledonia.

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#52

Post by sudosysgen »

kergonath wrote: post #50
sudosysgen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Nevada and New Mexico, there were actually people living in those deserts. Surprising, I know, and yes there aren't that many. The biggest issue is that the Algerian people did not support the tests. As for the agreement with the Algerian government, it was signed during wartime. Allowing the tests was a condition without which France would have killed more people.

Are you saying that nobody lives in New Mexico? I know some people who will be surprised to learn their family does not exist.

I'm not talking about NM. I'm talking about the deserts where the bombs were detonated.

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#53

Post by sudosysgen »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #44
sudosysgen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Nevada and New Mexico, there were actually people living in those deserts. Surprising, I know, and yes there aren't that many. The biggest issue is that the Algerian people did not support the tests. As for the agreement with the Algerian government, it was signed during wartime. Allowing the tests was a condition without which France would have killed more people.

There are people living in Nevada and New Mexico, even within range of the test facilities: tests were carried out 65 miles from Las Vegas. Arguably the Sahara is better suited. It's fair to criticise the way nuclear tests were carried out and perhaps whether they were needed at all, but this is a general criticism: My comparison with the US and the UK is to illustrate that the French did not do anything different or…

There were people living literally there, living exactly where the tests took place.

And no, it's not normal to do nuclear tests in a territory which is currently fighting for independence.

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#54

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #44
sudosysgen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Nevada and New Mexico, there were actually people living in those deserts. Surprising, I know, and yes there aren't that many. The biggest issue is that the Algerian people did not support the tests. As for the agreement with the Algerian government, it was signed during wartime. Allowing the tests was a condition without which France would have killed more people.

There are people living in Nevada and New Mexico, even within range of the test facilities: tests were carried out 65 miles from Las Vegas. Arguably the Sahara is better suited. It's fair to criticise the way nuclear tests were carried out and perhaps whether they were needed at all, but this is a general criticism: My comparison with the US and the UK is to illustrate that the French did not do anything different or…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Test_Site#/media/File:N... Crazy times!

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#55

Post by etiennemarcel »

marcelpro wrote: post #30

France is unique in the West as one of the few countries that unapologetically holds on to its colonies which it still regards as French territory. It continues to actively permit white settlers to migrate to New Caledonia and French Guiana, subtly ensuring the autonomy referendums are defeated and indigenous populations continue to be suppressed. It will come as no surprise that the French military are also actively…

It's not true. Overseas parts of France are fully integrated in the republic, and citizens there have the same rights as in the mainland. There's no distinction between "settlers" and "natives" from a legal point of view (the economic picture is a bit different). There have been referendums in New Caledonia about independance and people there still want to be part of France.

To be faire, I don't even understand how New Caledonia or French Polynesia (where people have full representation in congress) can be on the non-self-governing list of the UN when Puerto Rico (where citizens don't have a seat in the house, senate or electoral college) isn't.

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#56

Post by marcelpro »

etiennemarcel wrote: post #55
marcelpro wrote: post #30

France is unique in the West as one of the few countries that unapologetically holds on to its colonies which it still regards as French territory. It continues to actively permit white settlers to migrate to New Caledonia and French Guiana, subtly ensuring the autonomy referendums are defeated and indigenous populations continue to be suppressed. It will come as no surprise that the French military are also actively…

It's not true. Overseas parts of France are fully integrated in the republic, and citizens there have the same rights as in the mainland. There's no distinction between "settlers" and "natives" from a legal point of view (the economic picture is a bit different). There have been referendums in New Caledonia about independance and people there still want to be part of France. To be faire, I don't even understand how N…

> Overseas parts of France are fully integrated in the republic, and citizens there have the same rights as in the mainland.

I'm sure you know that the exact same claim was made about French Algeria.

"the Mediterranean coastal region of Algeria, housing the vast majority of its population, was ruled as an integral part of France from 1848 until its independence. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Algeria

Such statements like yours were exactly what was repeatedly screamed out by perhaps what you would call your hero?, Jean-Marie Le Pen. His daughter also recently said all that torturing of some folks was good for Algeria. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170420-le-pen-french-col...

Vous savez exactement ce que vous êtes.

> There have been referendums in New Caledonia about independance and people there still want to be part of France.

Again, such facts were also claimed about Algeria using the exact same tactics. It is not until 1961 where an actual fair referendum was held. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0035853590845221...

As one of France's longest-held overseas territories, Algeria became a destination for hundreds of thousands of European immigrants known as colons, and later as pieds-noirs. However, the indigenous Muslim population remained the majority of the territory's population throughout its history. In 1835, indigenous rebels organized the Algerian resistance movement against French settlement; the rebellion was suppressed in 1903 after the "pacification campaign" by the colonial forces, who used chemical weapons, mass executions of prisoners and civilians, concentration camps and other atrocities in order to put them down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Algeria

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#57

Post by a0-prw »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #39
Bayart wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When were we ever « friends » with New-Zealand ? It's not even in NATO. The only relationship we ever had was being part of the so-called West I suppose, although that never prevented us from going to war with our neighbours.

> When were we ever « friends » with New-Zealand Usually when the Germans invaded. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rue+de+la+Nouvelle+Z%C3%A9... > It's not even in NATO Article 6 of the North Atlantic treaty kinda prevents Southern Hemisphere countries in the Pacific from joining. No doubt NZ would have joined in the 60s, 70s, around the same time we had a penchant for getting involved in other people's post coloni…

Nato is a tool of the five eyes and the five eyes are a tool of a program of permanent domination and exploitation of the world by Anglo-American "capitalists".

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#58

Post by etiennemarcel »

marcelpro wrote: post #56
etiennemarcel wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not true. Overseas parts of France are fully integrated in the republic, and citizens there have the same rights as in the mainland. There's no distinction between "settlers" and "natives" from a legal point of view (the economic picture is a bit different). There have been referendums in New Caledonia about independance and people there still want to be part of France. To be faire, I don't even understand how N…

> Overseas parts of France are fully integrated in the republic, and citizens there have the same rights as in the mainland. I'm sure you know that the exact same claim was made about French Algeria. "the Mediterranean coastal region of Algeria, housing the vast majority of its population, was ruled as an integral part of France from 1848 until its independence. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Algeria Such sta…

I don't think I'll answer to a comment calling me a fascist. Comparing Algeria before independence and the current status of overseas France is dishonest.

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#59

Post by marcelpro »

etiennemarcel wrote: post #58
marcelpro wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Overseas parts of France are fully integrated in the republic, and citizens there have the same rights as in the mainland. I'm sure you know that the exact same claim was made about French Algeria. "the Mediterranean coastal region of Algeria, housing the vast majority of its population, was ruled as an integral part of France from 1848 until its independence. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Algeria Such sta…

I don't think I'll answer to a comment calling me a fascist. Comparing Algeria before independence and the current status of overseas France is dishonest.

No one called you a fascist. But you clearly hold views identical to Le Pen. Comparing how you justified continued sending settlers to "overseas" France and how the same steps were justified for pre-independence Algeria is perfectly valid and honest.

Re: France grossly underestimated radioactive fallout from atom bomb tests, study

#60

Post by marcelpro »

laurent92 wrote: post #42
FuckButtons wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one ever said that colonial empires didn’t invest in their colonies. But the real question is how do the people who live their feel about the way their country is governed.

This anti-colonialism needs to cease. As a French person, do i have to choice about how much taxes we pay or whether we belong to the E.U.? No, I need to compose with my neighbors, who have an entirely different idea of my freedom than I have. Democracy is an illusion, we don’t actually choose our leaders, we are told who to choose, that is point #1. Point #2 is, would those places be more democratic and wealthy if t…

> This anti-colonialism needs to cease.

So you would support Germany re-colonizing France like in 1938 to fix all the problems France has?

> also the only one who ended slavery

Incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_abolition_of_slave...

The abolition of slavery occurred at different times in different countries. It frequently occurred sequentially in more than one stage – for example, as abolition of the trade in slaves in a specific country, and then as abolition of slavery throughout empires. Each step was usually the result of a separate law or action. This timeline shows abolition laws or actions listed chronologically. It also covers the abolition of serfdom.

Although slavery is technically illegal in all countries today, the practice continues in many locations around the world, often with government support.

Post reply on HN