Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision • Hacker News Board

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#191

Post by waterlooman » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 2:56 AM UTC

otoburb wrote: post #151

waterlooman wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you are showing other than that you believe our population growth from mass immigration needs to continue despite the negative outcomes. In 1985 our population was 25 million, and today it is now 38 million. Most of that population growth can be attributed to mass immigration. But we have no new cities or towns. We are simply crowding ourselves out of the minimal amount of cities and arable land al…

>> I am not sure what you are showing other than that you believe our population growth from mass immigration needs to continue despite the negative outcomes. Perhaps to put a more human perspective, I graduated with a STEM degree during a recession and it was horrible. Many classmates had their careers set back by many years. If I have to choose again between prosperity and economic growth that seems to be strongly…

You are resting your pov on the assumption that more people = more and better jobs. This isn't necessarily true if there is an oversupply of workers to employers.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#192

Post by executive » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

andrecp11 wrote: post #170

bentlegen wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cursory look at condo prices on any website* shows that most condos are well below $1M CAD. A 1 bedroom can be had in the downtown core for 600-700k, and significantly lower if you don’t mind commuting from Scarborough or Etobicoke. Also, interest rates are 1% lower in Canada (albeit on shorter terms), and property taxes are roughly half. This isn’t to say that homes are “cheap”, but there’s more to the story. (Asi…

Which city did you enjoy more and why? As someone who has entertained moving to either one day from Vancouver/Bc, am very curious!

Toronto is a failed city. Stay west.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#193

Post by waterlooman » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

dsomers wrote: post #165

find wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm actually immigrating to Toronto later this year.) I understand your frustrations over immigration policy, and it's certainly not racist to wish for Canadians to enjoy the fruits of Canada. I just want to gently bring up the historical context that you've left out, but of which you are likely aware. ~5% of Canadians are indigenous, and most humans in Canada descend from recent immigrants who came to pursue a high…

Don’t listen to this guy. I’m Canadian and lived in Toronto for eight years. Toronto housing is expensive because of lax lending, bad zoning, and bad regulations. That’s it, Canadians are to blame for this. For an example Berlin is a similar physical size and population as Toronto, and has similar rate of high immigration, but has a lower cost of living relative to salaries. This is guy may not be racist, but he’s do…

I am blaming our immigration policy, not the "newcomers" as you say. Newcomers are obviously just doing what is best for them personally. Also, more than half of Germany's population rents housing. Most Canadians would not be satisfied with that.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#194

Post by waterlooman » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #185

waterlooman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If a new grad wants a starter property in the city then perhaps start with the purchase of a studio/1-bed. This lacks the history on what people used to be able to purchase, not just in Toronto but in all of Southern Ontario, and now even as far away as the Maritimes. The purchasing power for the average Canadian to afford things that actually mater (like housing), is dropping like crazy. Allow me to give you my own…

Why would you expect a city to remain affordable forever? Like if my grandparents bought a home in lower Manhattan I should be able to too? Cities come and go in desirability and some stay very desirable. Some cities undergo a transformation from swaths of single family homes to nothing but condo towers that cost more than homes.

Toronto is not a world class city like NYC, as much as it wishes it was. Toronto buckling under the weight of immigration numbers is due to the artificial population growth the government has mandated every year since 1988.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#195

Post by waterlooman » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 3:09 AM UTC

find wrote: post #153

waterlooman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If a new grad wants a starter property in the city then perhaps start with the purchase of a studio/1-bed. This lacks the history on what people used to be able to purchase, not just in Toronto but in all of Southern Ontario, and now even as far away as the Maritimes. The purchasing power for the average Canadian to afford things that actually mater (like housing), is dropping like crazy. Allow me to give you my own…

(I'm actually immigrating to Toronto later this year.) I understand your frustrations over immigration policy, and it's certainly not racist to wish for Canadians to enjoy the fruits of Canada. I just want to gently bring up the historical context that you've left out, but of which you are likely aware. ~5% of Canadians are indigenous, and most humans in Canada descend from recent immigrants who came to pursue a high…

It is not a contradiction and it is not wrong for immigrants themselves to want to lobby for strict new limits on immigration numbers. The rest of your question/argument sounds like an appeal to emotion or guilt.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#196

Post by patcon » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 3:41 AM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #175

patcon wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the work of good public consultation facilitators is (1) stopping those loud/frustrated/opinionated/entrenched people from distorting process, and (2) allowing many people to feel heard. (This is in addition to, of course, the more obvious: actually integrating that feedback, repeating it back, and acting on it.) Perhaps surprisingly with (2), public consultations are sometimes almost like public therapy -- a…

In Canada, "public consultations" tend to be far from good. They're almost always held -- or rather, were pre-COVID -- during regular business hours, with very predictable effects on demographics. The last one I attended had over 100 people; about 60% were retirees, and around 15% were college students. I was the only male between the ages of 25 and 60 -- because working-age males overwhelmingly spend their weekday a…

To make a sweeping and definitely falsifiable statement: My understanding is that public consultations are almost always total garbage in individualist nations :) The bread and butter of those who run them are mostly done around civic land use, and property developers unintentionally capture most of the industry and distort it.

Collectivist countries like Taiwan seem to have a much stronger consultation professional culture, probably because it's not just governments that hire them, but generally lots of businesses seem to find need for mediation/consultation

The good consultations cover a lot of slots. The one you or I go to will always have a skew. It usually doesn't mean the consult is bad. Different "weirdos" show up for different times :) Public consultations always seem to have powerless people who gravitate toward them, and this is sometimes the only platform they're ever given. A good consultation professional knows how to manage them imho

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#197

Post by rayhendricks » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 3:58 AM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #27

rubyist5eva wrote: post #14

As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordability" is laughable. It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, and the incompetent city council, mayor and all the way up to the provincial government are doing absolutely everything they can to keep it that way - mostly without even realiz…

The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working…

These same kids can come to the United States and get paid decently with a currency that is 25% more valuable and generally lower taxes (also look at Chicago vs Toronto condo prices...), that is how a government creates a brain drain of young professionals.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#198

Post by 29083011397778 » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 4:34 AM UTC

totony wrote: post #186

29083011397778 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start with the reminder that global warming means wider, less predictable swings. Not just warmer weather. But more to the point, taxing people less doesn't always help. Alberta, with it's no provincial sales tax, is a place I'm leaving for the exact reason that there's no money for infrastructure or services. Without taxes there are no backstops for me to fall back on (like a robust transit system). To me, th…

Selective lowering of taxes doesn't imply less money for infrastructure for the affected areas. Gov could (should imo) tax big cities more to develop underdeveloped cities.

The Federal government will assist with highway and road maintenance, but they are technically and legally the responsibility of the provinces and territories [0]

As Alberta collects less tax revenue (in PST & GST) than several other provinces [1], they have less available to spend on infrastructure. My life is made worse (through rock chips and potholes) due to the government of Alberta not collecting more taxes.

While you're right the feds could make up the difference, that seems extraordinarily unlikely - their argument, to my knowledge, has always been that provinces should help themselves (that is, collect tax revenue approximately equal to the other provinces) before demanding more from equalization payments. I would assume they'd take a similar stance regarding other spending.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood or assumed incorrectly though :)

[0] https://www.loc.gov/law/help/infrastructure-funding/canada.p...

[1] https://www.transfereaserelocation.com/canada-which-region-h...

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#199

Post by u678u » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 4:53 AM UTC

29083011397778 wrote: post #143

u678u wrote: post #106

Vancouver and Toronto really suffer because they're the warmest parts of a huge cold country and everyone wants to live there. Maybe global warming will mean more people will want to live further North or inland. Ideally the government would try harder like not tax people who live in smaller cities.

Let me start with the reminder that global warming means wider, less predictable swings. Not just warmer weather. But more to the point, taxing people less doesn't always help. Alberta, with it's no provincial sales tax, is a place I'm leaving for the exact reason that there's no money for infrastructure or services. Without taxes there are no backstops for me to fall back on (like a robust transit system). To me, th…

> Without taxes there are no backstops for me to fall back on (like a robust transit system). To me, that's more financial insecurity, not more.

Agreed I meant tax residents of Toronto and Vancouver more and use the money to subsidize other regions.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#200

Post by aborsy » Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

didibus wrote: post #82

waterlooman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If a new grad wants a starter property in the city then perhaps start with the purchase of a studio/1-bed. This lacks the history on what people used to be able to purchase, not just in Toronto but in all of Southern Ontario, and now even as far away as the Maritimes. The purchasing power for the average Canadian to afford things that actually mater (like housing), is dropping like crazy. Allow me to give you my own…

What makes you think lowering the number of immigrants coming in would lower the prices of housing? Any thesis around it?

Immigrants typically concentrate in big cities, increasing demand for limited housing and jobs.