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Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

theguardian.com

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Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#161

Post by sebastien_bois »

peeters wrote: post #32
throw0101a wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Toronto has a history of planning to do something with its waterfront (Port Lands / Quayside etc) Besides the fact that a brand new island is being built: * https://portlandsto.ca/construction/ * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villiers_Island > Enjoy this article about a monorail - from 2011. How many people took Doug Ford seriously about anything?

*Rob Ford

Frankly, either "Doug" or "Rob" applies equally.

(For those not in the know - Rob Ford was a former mayor of Toronto, whom was not known for being a particularly smart or nice person; Rob Ford died a few years ago. Doug Ford is his brother, and is the current Premier of Ontario. Doug is definitively less of an embarrassment, but only "less".)

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#162

Post by [deleted] »

lhorie wrote: post #156
dsomers wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s not a lot of evidence that it’s not the locals creating a bubble because of speculation and lax lending. If you don’t believe me look up how nicely private mortgage debt in Canada correlates with the growth in housing prices in Canadian cities. Canadians hold one of the highest rates of personal debt in the OECD.

That's actually a really good point to ponder about. I've seen a number of news articles about predatory practices among real estate agents (I believe many hog anywhere from 3 properties or more to ride the bubble, there's unethical abuse of dual representation, there's bid secrecy, etc) No doubt, there's also a great deal of greed and wealth signaling from the general population (especially among upper middle class)…

[deleted]

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#163

Post by bobthepanda »

overton wrote: post #154

Toronto needs to build more housing, period. It doesn't need to be "smart", it doesn't need to be "iconic", there just needs to be a lot of it and it needs to be close to amenities and jobs. As far as I can tell, the reason this is so difficult is a combination of powerful people making boatloads of money off the restricted supply, and inertia in favour of the low-density zoning that covers most of the city.

It is also unhelpful that transit in Toronto is packed to the gills, and so outer areas that are on a transit line that could also take development are basically full.

I will believe that the hemming and hawing over whatever the Ontario Line/Downtown Relief Line is going to be is over when there are shovels in the ground, but until then, Line 1 is packed to the gills, and the future extensions north are not helping.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#164

Post by motohagiography »

Planners think the problem is a lack of planning, but the things that make the city great are the unplanned ones. Most desirable places in the city are the ones that were mostly left alone. It has become a city of busybodies and corrupt developers. The growth in Toronto is going to come from foreign capital flight, not endogenous growth, and it these days it might as well be an extended international airport where people and capital just pass through. We should rename it Greater Pearson.

The planning we have today has been anti-restaurant, anti-patio, anti-car, anti-nightlife, and anti-street-life. Street level retail is dominated by money laundering operations run out of nail salons, massage parlours, and tattoo shops, and the rents are so expensive it's too much risk to start something unique, so we get a bunch of overcapitalized global franchises on every corner. The condos are just cells masquerading as display cases for shallow consumer lifestyles for people who won't have kids.

The best possible solution to the waterfront would be to fence it off and leave a few thousand storage containers for people find and inhabit, and in 10 years you will have a real local culture based on an equilibrium of desire.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#165

Post by dsomers »

find wrote: post #153
waterlooman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If a new grad wants a starter property in the city then perhaps start with the purchase of a studio/1-bed. This lacks the history on what people used to be able to purchase, not just in Toronto but in all of Southern Ontario, and now even as far away as the Maritimes. The purchasing power for the average Canadian to afford things that actually mater (like housing), is dropping like crazy. Allow me to give you my own…

(I'm actually immigrating to Toronto later this year.) I understand your frustrations over immigration policy, and it's certainly not racist to wish for Canadians to enjoy the fruits of Canada. I just want to gently bring up the historical context that you've left out, but of which you are likely aware. ~5% of Canadians are indigenous, and most humans in Canada descend from recent immigrants who came to pursue a high…

Don’t listen to this guy. I’m Canadian and lived in Toronto for eight years. Toronto housing is expensive because of lax lending, bad zoning, and bad regulations. That’s it, Canadians are to blame for this. For an example Berlin is a similar physical size and population as Toronto, and has similar rate of high immigration, but has a lower cost of living relative to salaries. This is guy may not be racist, but he’s doing the classic lazy thing of blaming newcomers when its really the locals that did this to themselves.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#166

Post by bentlegen »

cobookman wrote: post #140
otoburb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, [...] Toronto was ranked as the 98th most expensive city in the world; not even in the top 50, even though it's the 4th largest city in North America. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Toronto and Vancouver are unaffordable and expensive cities for domestic Canadians to live in. >> Our debt to GDP is out of control. Our federal government keeps bo…

Toronto is expensive given the amount jobs are paying in the area. SF a condo might be 1M, but getting paid 250k+ for a job is fairly common. In Toronto the condo might be 1M (CAD), but getting paid 250k+ CAD is not common. By all accounts Toronto is more expensive than SF

A cursory look at condo prices on any website* shows that most condos are well below $1M CAD. A 1 bedroom can be had in the downtown core for 600-700k, and significantly lower if you don’t mind commuting from Scarborough or Etobicoke.

Also, interest rates are 1% lower in Canada (albeit on shorter terms), and property taxes are roughly half.

This isn’t to say that homes are “cheap”, but there’s more to the story.

(Aside, I have lived in both cities for a considerable number of years.)

https://www.zolo.ca/toronto-real-estate/sold

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#167

Post by waterlaw »

throwawaysea wrote: post #137
rubyist5eva wrote: post #14

As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordability" is laughable. It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, and the incompetent city council, mayor and all the way up to the provincial government are doing absolutely everything they can to keep it that way - mostly without even realiz…

Is it really that these cities are poorly managed or just that everyone feels entitled to live in the most expensive and desirable places? I don’t get the point of building up more - it’s just going to induce more demand (a common argument used by urbanists when it comes to road infrastructure). The real fix is that people need to spread out, and stop feeling like there are only two places to live in across such a la…

The problem is that Western countries in general now seem incapable of building new cities.

Particularly Canada. Government policy has destroyed Northern Ontario. Everyone is crowding into Southern Ontario.

The defining trait of modern Canada is doing less with more. This country has given up on building infrastructure. It's given up improving.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#168

Post by andrecp11 »

cobookman wrote: post #140
otoburb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, [...] Toronto was ranked as the 98th most expensive city in the world; not even in the top 50, even though it's the 4th largest city in North America. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Toronto and Vancouver are unaffordable and expensive cities for domestic Canadians to live in. >> Our debt to GDP is out of control. Our federal government keeps bo…

Toronto is expensive given the amount jobs are paying in the area. SF a condo might be 1M, but getting paid 250k+ for a job is fairly common. In Toronto the condo might be 1M (CAD), but getting paid 250k+ CAD is not common. By all accounts Toronto is more expensive than SF

> SF a condo might be 1M, but getting paid 250k+ for a job is fairly common.

If you're in tech of course. SF and Toronto have many other professionals living in. How's the median salaries comparing?

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#169

Post by astrange »

dsomers wrote: post #146
otoburb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Toronto is often ranked near the top of least affordable cities. When the only factor is home ownership, which is the focus of URI's study, this is absolutely correct. But then I think back to how absolutely unaffordable housing was across the GTA in the late 80s, after which point people were able to buy back in again when the housing market corrected 40% in most of the GTA, with certain areas of Toronto (not the…

Condos built in Toronto are mostly terrible for anyone that’s not single. They’re basically Airbnb speculation boxes in the sky. The city suffers badly from “the missing middle“ problem because of bad zoning. It’s a big part of why I moved away after living there 8 years.

Speculation up in the sky isn't really a problem since a) it's a tax base b) it's not hurting you since it doesn't take up land c) a condo is strictly cheaper than a house on the same land.

If housing is expensive it's because there aren't enough houses or the land is too expensive, and it's true that much of this is due to zoning and similar restrictions like parking minimums.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#170

Post by andrecp11 »

bentlegen wrote: post #166
cobookman wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toronto is expensive given the amount jobs are paying in the area. SF a condo might be 1M, but getting paid 250k+ for a job is fairly common. In Toronto the condo might be 1M (CAD), but getting paid 250k+ CAD is not common. By all accounts Toronto is more expensive than SF

A cursory look at condo prices on any website* shows that most condos are well below $1M CAD. A 1 bedroom can be had in the downtown core for 600-700k, and significantly lower if you don’t mind commuting from Scarborough or Etobicoke. Also, interest rates are 1% lower in Canada (albeit on shorter terms), and property taxes are roughly half. This isn’t to say that homes are “cheap”, but there’s more to the story. (Asi…

Which city did you enjoy more and why? As someone who has entertained moving to either one day from Vancouver/Bc, am very curious!
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