Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision • Hacker News Board

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#41

Post by mymythisisthis » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

dade_ wrote: post #7

Jemm wrote: post #3

All this talk about the area and no mention that the land in that area is full of toxic pollution from decades of industrial abuse.

Which is Waterfront Toronto’s actual mandate, clean up the land, build the infrastructure, sell it to developers aligned to the vision. Instead they got all whimsical and got the idea in their heads that they are going to change the world. Fooled by the FAANG. They need to get back to their knitting, not become social justice eco-warriors. Otherwise this whole project will fail and we will end up with a damned casino…

Ironically Toronto already had a floating restaurant called Captain Jacks. At the base of Yonge St. The Port Authority and the Owner could not come to an agreement on money owned for use of the slip. The owner packed in after a good run for a couple of decades. The vintage ship was towed away, and hacked up for scrap. Toronto was left without a good restaurant on the water.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#42

Post by njharman » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

neom wrote: post #16

rubyist5eva wrote: post #14

As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordability" is laughable. It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, and the incompetent city council, mayor and all the way up to the provincial government are doing absolutely everything they can to keep it that way - mostly without even realiz…

Instead of moving out, couldn't you get involved with politics and try to change things?

Voting with feet is often more impactful. Both for the cause and the idividual

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#43

Post by andi999 » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #27

rubyist5eva wrote: post #14

As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordability" is laughable. It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, and the incompetent city council, mayor and all the way up to the provincial government are doing absolutely everything they can to keep it that way - mostly without even realiz…

The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working…

"A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate", reading the article this seems to be based on a severe case of dyscalculia. If the apartment costs 1 million and you want to save until you have 6% (which is 60k), and you only save 10% of your annual 170k salary, meaning you save 17k per year so after 3 years plus you have the down-payment. In addition to proper math one also should probably save a bit more per year.

Edit: I am basically criticizing the article linked from the comment: https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-afforda... Apart from the calculation wrong I also think the numbers/assumptions are not good

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#44

Post by routerl » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #28

Politicians like these are why innovation is so slow. Google was primed and ready to try something new but it was just too different for these people to handle. I don't even like every aspect of the Google city plan but it would have been an invaluable experiment.

Sorry, but the politicians were largely on Google's side, sharing your absolutely ignorant enthusiasm. It took a massive, years-long grassroots campaign of engineers, residents, security researchers, urban planners, ethicists, etc etc, for us to finally amass enough political capital to pressure our elected representatives into actually, you know, representing us.

> it would have been an invaluable experiment.

That's the point. There are proven solutions to the problems this city faces, with long histories of being researched in universities and implemented elsewhere. These are the things we need, not "experiments". We are the fourth largest city in North America, not a test ground for American "innovation".

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#45

Post by jdtbuchanan » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #43

hourislate wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working…

"A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate", reading the article this seems to be based on a severe case of dyscalculia. If the apartment costs 1 million and you want to save until you have 6% (which is 60k), and you only save 10% of your annual 170k salary, meaning you save 17k per year so after 3 years plus you have the down-payment. In addition to proper math one also should probably sav…

Not sure where you got the numbers but to buy a 1m condo in Toronto would require closer to 250k not 60k. And that isn’t taking into consideration the condo will also be up 8-10% next year.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#46

Post by ghaff » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:31 PM UTC

mymythisisthis wrote: post #39

beckman466 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think corporations using black-box technology on human guinea pigs in a city-size scale is an exciting ‘experiment’? Innovation is slow because science is constantly commoditized and recommoditized using violent means by a partnership between capitalist politicians and capitalist firms; the ‘intellectual property’ system is the tool (trade secrets > copyrights > patents).

Innovation is slow because many of the new technologies aren't that transformative. Some technologies are very transformative. The Internet in 1990s killed much of the paper based printing. When was the last time someone bough a physical accounting ledger? A newspaper? A printed calendar? An encyclopedia? But, it doesn't take long for people to internalize the change, and go about their daily lives. Not thinking abou…

We're fairly far into the Internet era at this point but I imagine that even many of the people who lived through the transition appreciate just how different the world is today from the mid-1990s, 25 years ago.

Most didn't have Internet--and for those who did we're mostly talking about things like Usenet. Many didn't even have cell phones, much less Gen 1 smartphones. Most were still navigating using paper maps and written directions. There was very little ecommerce. Many didn't even have home computers, much less broadband. TV was mostly still something you watched in a scheduled way unless you programmed your VCR. Etc.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#47

Post by DC1350 » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #43

hourislate wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working…

"A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate", reading the article this seems to be based on a severe case of dyscalculia. If the apartment costs 1 million and you want to save until you have 6% (which is 60k), and you only save 10% of your annual 170k salary, meaning you save 17k per year so after 3 years plus you have the down-payment. In addition to proper math one also should probably sav…

Anything over a million requires a 20% down payment. Also, prices doubled over the last 5 years so if trends continue then a million dollar home today will take a 400k down payment if it takes 5 years to save

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#48

Post by otoburb » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #27

rubyist5eva wrote: post #14

As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordability" is laughable. It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, and the incompetent city council, mayor and all the way up to the provincial government are doing absolutely everything they can to keep it that way - mostly without even realiz…

The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working…

>>Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working for 40k a year.

The starting salary for STEM grads seem to be well above 40K CAD, perhaps even >65K CAD [1].

>>A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate

When you pair your linked article with the fact that the GTA has experienced net-positive population growth every single year since 1971[1] then it makes a little more sense why property prices have risen and continue to rise inexorably over the years.

I also note that in your linked article a GTA condo downpayment can be accumulated within 4 years at the assumed 10% savings rate for a HHI of $124K CAD, and that's a 2-bedroom condo. If a new grad wants a starter property in the city then perhaps start with the purchase of a studio/1-bed.

[1] https://www.canadastudynews.com/2017/11/30/stem-graduates-ea...

[2] https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/demographics/projection...

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#49

Post by riskneutral » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #28

Politicians like these are why innovation is so slow. Google was primed and ready to try something new but it was just too different for these people to handle. I don't even like every aspect of the Google city plan but it would have been an invaluable experiment.

> invaluable experiment

Why would we want our city, homes and public places, to be turned over to an "experiment?" And not just an experiment, but an experiment conducted by a corporation? And not just a corporation, but a foreign corporation that doesn't even have any significant presence here offering us decent jobs (and is instead one the leading causes of our "brain drain" problem)? Even if this experiment is invaluable (I can't imagine how it is), the majority of the value from experimenting would accrue to Google (experiments are valuable if they can be repeated many times after learning something new, and while Google could learn from the mistakes and repeat the experiment in a different city, Toronto would not be able to tear down the "smart city" to repeat the experiment). No great city in this world has been built on gimmicky technologies that will become obsolete. Just look at "smart homes" that were built 20+ years ago (e.g. installing speakers throughout the house etc), all the technology becomes an obsolete eyesore that eventually gets ripped out.

Re: Toronto swaps Google-backed, not-so-smart city plans for people-centred vision

#50

Post by dugditches » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #27

rubyist5eva wrote: post #14

As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordability" is laughable. It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, and the incompetent city council, mayor and all the way up to the provincial government are doing absolutely everything they can to keep it that way - mostly without even realiz…

The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working…

There is work outside the cities in other fields.

However, with all the people leaving the cities(it was an issue even before current 'work at home' situation, but even greater now) they push out local buyers.

Wages outside the cities have stayed fairly stagnant(asides min. wage). And buyers simply can't compete with 'big money' coming from people having sold their property in a city.

A quick glance at this makes one woozy. It feels after the '08 crisis just about everyone lost their lunch. However this modern crisis, it feels like upperclass got out ahead while lower classes simply lost. https://img.take-profit.org/graphs/indicators/money-supply-m...