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The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

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61–70 of 90 posts

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#61

Very interesting article. I wonder about the second and third order effects of genetic engineering, but I would say I’m optimistic about a tree that’s engineered to survive a blight, whereas engineering crops so they can survive being soaked in cancer-causing poison that kills everything else in the field —- and then eating them —- seems far more concerning.

On the other hand, engineering corn to produce Bt toxin, which is harmless to mammals, such that less broad-spectrum insecticide must be applied to get the crop to harvest, seems like a straightforward win. The toxin only affects insects which actually eat the corn, so it shouldn't be contributing to the alarming crash in insect population we've been seeing worldwide.

I think that's a compelling argument, but I find I'm still cautious about anything that we're eating, especially as a staple good. It's just extremely difficult to _know_ what the long-term effects of any significant change in diet will be for any creature, and in particular for us humans it's hard to be an outside observer since by definition we don't live long enough to observe multiple generations. There have been a lot of things that science thought were "harmless" or even "good for us" in the 20th century which we later realized was quite harmful. I see no reason to think that we've passed some magic threshold where we no longer make such mistakes.

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#62
post #27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should really read more about how modern herbicides work. Glyphosate disrupts a specific enzyme that only plants use. That's why genetic engineering works so well for resistance to it, you can simply eliminate the vulnerability. The issue isn't that it's cancer causing (there's next to no chance it is, the issues are with the surfactants). The real issue is that weeds are evolving to also have glyphosate resistan…

The concerning thing about glyphosate from a biochemistry standpoint is that it's a very small molecule. As any engineer knows, small objects fit in lots of holes. It's also got a phosphonic acid component which is not a normal motif in biology and could (maybe) disrupt the function of any protein that happens to bind to it. The intention of glyphosate is reasonable, but the effect can be different.

[deleted]

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#63
post #30

If chestnut trees were wiped out by 1940, that means Mel Tormé & Bob Wells, writing The Christmas Song in 1946 ("chestnuts roasting on an open fire"), were already being nostalgic.

The bight is believed to have come from trees introduced from east Asia. Here in the Pacific North West there are plenty of chestnut trees. Last autumn I picked like 4 or 5 full shopping bags full of edible chestnuts. They were delicious. I’m not sure if it is from American, Chinese or even Japanese chestnuts trees though. It is highly likely that Mel Tormé and Bob Wells were roasting the east Asian chestnuts over th…

You may have a different Bob Wells in mind.

https://performingsongwriter.com/christmas-song/

> The “chestnuts roasting on an open fire” image was a memory from Wells’ childhood in Boston, when there’d be vendors on street corners at Christmas, serving up paper cones full of roasted chestnuts.

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#64
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all mosquito spread disease or bite humans and the ones that do are not a major part of important ecosystems. When DEET was used heavily it didn't collapse any ecosystems. If we eliminate those species, the non-spreaders will fill the niche while eliminating major human suffering. It is not comparable to killing any sparrow sized bird.

As far as we know. My argument is that large chaotic systems are often poorly understood by us and we have gotten it wrong many times in the past. I agree that erradicating bad mosquitos feels like a win, but I personally don’t know if there’s any unforeseen effects.

Your argument lacks nuance. It comes across as though you are unwilling to accept that we can learn from the mistakes of the past and be more careful this time, because with that attitude you don't have to engage with the specifics of a proposal. It really seems like pointless fearmongering, especially after the article already addressed some of the specific concerns about what might go wrong with introducing GMO chestnuts into the wild. Reminding people of the general concern that making significant changes to a whole ecosystem can have unforeseen consequences doesn't add anything to that conversation.

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#66

There is a good chance in 10 years we will look back and ask ourselves why the heck it took us so long to allow the genetically engineered chestnuts. There is a big difference between genetic engineering to remove a species from existence vs reversing a bad thing we did and protect a species from going extinct. Our duty is to protect nature from us, and not not intervening when we destroy it. We did this accidentally…

I was unfamiliar with the chestnut debacle until I read The Overstory - I immediately put the book down and went to read about chestnuts being wiped out in droves.

I will admit I never expected to open the front page of HN in 2021 and read a comment about someone who had read The Overstory. Richard Powers is the preeminent American novelist of our time. With respect to all his works, HN types will especially enjoy Plowing the Dark and Galatea 2.2.

There is no better way to dig deep into the effects of modern technology on society than to read Richard Powers. It is no exaggeration to say that reading Powers fundamentally changed the course of my life. Reading his work is absolutely worth your time.

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#68
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I would not cry if the biting mosquito that spreads disease, the bacteria that causes wet dog smell, and Cryphonectria parasitica went extinct never to appear again. Remember when Mao tried that with evil evil sparrows stealing seeds from the party and caused the greatest famine in human history? Fun times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign

Is there consensus on how significant the sparrow thing was to the famine? I would have guessed that the whole “you’re not allowed to have your own farms any more, you now have to work in these farms, but you don’t get to keep any of the food from these farms” thing was a much more significant cause.

I’ve read “Mao’s Great Famine” by Frank Dikötter, but it’s been a while. Wikipedia [1] captures every contributing cause, but I’d emphasise the illusion of superabundance, which was essentially local government exaggerating the size of their harvests to make themselves look good to Beijing. Their province then had to export the entire harvest to cover their lies. Incompetent government was the major cause either way.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine#Causes_...

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#69
post #53
post #32

I recently bought a house in a wooded area. In the backyard was a large old tree that I could not identify. After much searching I figured out that it was a chestnut tree! The article says they are the "perfect tree", but the chestnuts are incredibly sharp and tough. Very painful to step on.

Green spiny balls of death with nuts inside? That's a Chinese chestnut if so, we have two or three on our property. Deer love them but I'm not a huge fan.

Yes, we get so many deer that hop the fence. It never occurred to me that they were going after the chestnuts though.

Re: The demise and potential revival of the American chestnut

#70
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I would not cry if the biting mosquito that spreads disease, the bacteria that causes wet dog smell, and Cryphonectria parasitica went extinct never to appear again. Remember when Mao tried that with evil evil sparrows stealing seeds from the party and caused the greatest famine in human history? Fun times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign

Is there consensus on how significant the sparrow thing was to the famine? I would have guessed that the whole “you’re not allowed to have your own farms any more, you now have to work in these farms, but you don’t get to keep any of the food from these farms” thing was a much more significant cause.

From the accounts I've read, I think the sparrows thing was more of a symbol of what happened in the culture and an exemplar of the Party's thinking than the linchpin in the ecology they're often portrayed as.
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