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You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#471

Post by flyingfences »

runarberg wrote: post #335
flyingfences wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Racial discrimination: Now here is a real long stretch... You might be thinking about discrimination against white people It's not racial discrimination unless it's grown on the Right; otherwise, it's just "sparkling discrimination on the basis of race".

Wow! A few sentences later I link to a leftist accusing a Maoist leftist for being reactionary and discriminatory. I even mention the fact that Maoists and National Bolsheviks (which are very much racists while leftists) exist in the very first sentence of the paragraph. However, these are not the norm. They are a very small minority and most leftist groups will not tolerate them.

I don't care what "a leftist" has accused another leftist of...

I'm taking issue with the fact that you are saying that "discrimination against white people" is not "racial discrimination" with the implication that it's somehow better.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#472

Post by ttt0 »

AshWolfy wrote: post #445
ttt0 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://archive.is/ilHur > One person was hit by a car in downtown Louisville, Kentucky, early on June 17 as protesters held an anti-racism demonstration at Jefferson Square, police said. The story might be unrelated, but they knew exactly where it came from.

citation needed

In the archive.

> One person was hit by a car in downtown Louisville, Kentucky, early on June 17 as protesters held an anti-racism demonstration at Jefferson Square, police said.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#473

Post by oehpr »

cousin_it wrote: post #365
benchaney wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any actual evidence that the paradox of tolerance is correct? I suspect people stopped taking it seriously (and mentioning it in discussions on speech) because it’s advocates always seem to expect everyone to take it on faith, instead of providing a real argument to support their claims.

Popper's book is more philosophical than historical, and I'm as annoyed with people who only know one soundbite from it as the next guy, but over time I've come to believe that the paradox encodes an important truth: there's no reason for me to support freedom of speech for those who don't support mine. Maybe the way of the future is something like Substack, groups of people who say "we'll protect each other's right…

"there's no reason for me to support freedom of speech for those who don't support mine."

Tit for tat free speech. That's interesting. Reminds me a bit of the GPL, honestly.

Thanks for posting, I'm going to reflect on this idea and it's ramifications.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#474

Post by anonymouswacker »

ralmidani wrote: post #351

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

This is the mainstream thinking in the US, and why everything is rapidly going to shit. There is no "we" giving people a microphone -- it is a select few oligarchs who wield exceptional control to take away the voice of people whose views run counter to their and their cronies' interests. There is no democracy, representation, or transparency. The coming antithesis will be bypassing the control of the few on the voice of the many, and an Internet 2.0 which will be resistant to the censorship of tyrants and warmongers who comprise the faux-woke... if we still have the electrical grid & network infrastructure to support it...

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#475

Post by runarberg »

ralusek wrote: post #406
runarberg wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of entertaining the no true Scotsman : A leftist that doesn’t empathize with the masses, is not a true leftist.

There is no consistent conception of the masses to the left. Traditionally, there is the labor class and the capital class. In the modern left, oppressors and oppressed are typically determined by identity group, but the game is the same. To win the game of leftism, you better pray that you're in the "masses."

True. A Marxist will have a different conception of the masses from an anarchist (even though the intersection is usually pretty large). But I fail to see what that has to do with anything. There is no game of leftism. The goal is to free people from the tyranny of capitalism and fascism (marxists might emphasize the former while anarchists the latter).

Leftists generally accept rich folks sympathetic to the cause, even though they technically don’t belong to the masses. For example Marxists and anarchists alike generally accept Henry David Thoreau and Leo Tolstoy as leftists (even though the latter was born into great wealth), and leftists generally accept Dan Price (#DanPriceSeattle on twitter) even though he is a boss (i.e. not off the masses).

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#476

Post by Falling3 »

CyberRabbi wrote: post #463
jdlyga wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely agree. Back a year ago when you saw this kind of stuff all over Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc it felt so normalized. But now you have to go to fringe websites. It's still out there of course. But it's very back-alley and definitely makes you take what people are saying with a grain of salt.

If it’s difficult for you to see political opinions with which you disagree being normalized, imagine how they feel.

It's completely disingenuous to categorize statements like "the US tax code is too complex" and "Jews are starting forest fires with space lasers" both as just 'political opinions'.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#477

Post by pjc50 »

Lammy wrote: post #383
ralmidani wrote: post #351

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

You're still using subjective terms like "extremism" in an objective way that the people on the receiving end of that label may not agree with or appreciate.

Al-Quaeda might not appreciate being labelled as extremists, but so what?

We have to call things as we see them. And build a consensus around what's core values and within the normal range of debate, and what's beyond that into dangerous, destructive, and even murderous.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#478

Post by AnthonyMouse »

runarberg wrote: post #416
morpheos137 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has any rigorous study shown that blacks are more likely to die in police encounters after adjusting for income level and crime rate of where the encounter takes place? If so please provide a cite or link. Although out of thousands of cops in the USA I am sure there are some genuine racists the notion that in 2020 cops would be killing blacks intentionally at a higher rate seems ridiculous. 99.999% of cops want to ha…

> after adjusting for income level and crime rate of where the encounter takes place Please stop with this racist skewing of statistics. There are thousands of factors involved. A bad faith person will always be able to stack them up in a way that favors their cause. Experts in criminology pretty much agree that racial justice is a problem in urban and sub urban USA, including police violence. The only reason to disa…

> Please stop with this racist skewing of statistics. There are thousands of factors involved.

But that's the whole point. If black people are disproportionately shot by police because police are racist, that's a problem with police. If it's because "thousands of factors" cause black people to have disproportionately more encounters with police, but the police themselves are acting with neutrality, then it's a problem somewhere else and you can't fix it through police reform.

The answer is fundamental if you actually want to solve the problem. But not evaluating it is convenient if you just want to keep using it as a political bludgeon forever, because by not even looking in the right places for a solution, the problem is never solved and you can run for office on it over and over.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#479

Post by pjc50 »

fatsdomino001 wrote: post #439
ralmidani wrote: post #351

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

"you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong." This is such a terrible idea. All this accomplishes is causing extremists to find echo chambers where they will never actually know what they're doing is wrong. It's much better to keep extremists in mainstream platform…

In practice, anyone on an extreme platform is also on the mainstream ones.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#480

Post by vkou »

jdlyga wrote: post #372
ralmidani wrote: post #351

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

Definitely agree. Back a year ago when you saw this kind of stuff all over Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc it felt so normalized. But now you have to go to fringe websites. It's still out there of course. But it's very back-alley and definitely makes you take what people are saying with a grain of salt.

It also has much lower reach. Ideas are viral - and don't spread very well when they have less exposure.

You don't see too much pro-Al-Qaeda or ISIS material on Facebook or Twitter. Somehow, we've managed to censor that extremism away.

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