On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#141

Post by mitjak » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

nineplay wrote: post #95

I think he's glossing over the obvious. A friend of mine was just reminiscing about growing up in her family's dairy farm. Every Saturday morning, every Sunday morning, every Christmas you get up to take care of the cows. Feel sick? You've got to get up and take care of the cows. Want to go on vacation? Can't, there's no one you can leave the cows with. It's a hard life - maybe a satisfying life in some ways but ther…

what a strange point. "the obvious" is not that there's concentration of power but that farming is hard? what about small farms where many people are happy to continue working because they find it fulfilling?

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#142

Post by elmomle » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #131

alteriority wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can't speak for gruez, but a couple off the top of my head: -set standards that all members abide by, potentially bypassing "tragedy of the commons'-style coordination problems -share information which, in a more cutthroat environment, would be considered "trade secrets". Not sure how these would apply to the dairy industry specifically; it just seems overly broad to say that price fixing is the only plausible form o…

Look into the effects of your ideas, and you'll see them wind up in rising prices. Your first example, excluding industry members who don't meet a particular standard, is one of the most typical forms of "colluding to raise prices" you could possibly think of, often expressed in the form of professional certification. The only things an economic organization can do are raise prices and lower costs. For a labor union,…

Setting standards and price fixing are different things. You can have fair competition within a marketplace with rules and standards. Price fixing is when all sellers agree to not sell below a certain price, which is a problem pretty much regardless of a marketplace's rules.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#143

Post by jschwartzi » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #131

alteriority wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can't speak for gruez, but a couple off the top of my head: -set standards that all members abide by, potentially bypassing "tragedy of the commons'-style coordination problems -share information which, in a more cutthroat environment, would be considered "trade secrets". Not sure how these would apply to the dairy industry specifically; it just seems overly broad to say that price fixing is the only plausible form o…

Look into the effects of your ideas, and you'll see them wind up in rising prices. Your first example, excluding industry members who don't meet a particular standard, is one of the most typical forms of "colluding to raise prices" you could possibly think of, often expressed in the form of professional certification. The only things an economic organization can do are raise prices and lower costs. For a labor union,…

By arguing from the standpoint of raising or lowering prices you're being very reductive. Doctors form trade associations too, and yes the prices for a certified doctor are much higher, but the quality of care is also standardized and usually higher to match. OP wasn't making the point that industry associations don't raise prices. OP was pointing out that most industry associations are formed to try to make things better. And that might result in increased prices, but that's a side-effect and not the goal.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#144

Post by petermcneeley » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #114

I keep saying this and repeating over and over again... Yet keep getting downvoted. The monopolization of everything is caused by monetary policy. All these megacorps are not a natural phenomena. They are not competing on an even playing field. Even die-hard capitalists who read Ayn Rand and watched her interviews will understand that monopolization should not happen without government intervention. The current monet…

How do you explain the railway monopolies?

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#145

Post by xipho » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

nineplay wrote: post #95

I think he's glossing over the obvious. A friend of mine was just reminiscing about growing up in her family's dairy farm. Every Saturday morning, every Sunday morning, every Christmas you get up to take care of the cows. Feel sick? You've got to get up and take care of the cows. Want to go on vacation? Can't, there's no one you can leave the cows with. It's a hard life - maybe a satisfying life in some ways but ther…

You seem to equate hard work ethic with sustainability, this is false. You obviously have never experienced the joys of winters with nothing todo except read, learn, cook and play, because you worked insanely hard on the farm for 6-8 months of the growing season (being your own boss, but who cares about that).

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#146

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

pullmn wrote: post #127

duxup wrote: post #87

Farming as a business gets idealized in the US and there's often this concept of a good old days when family farming was profitable and stable. But historically speaking farming has always been a boom and bust industry. Even during the land rush days in the US the amount of space granted per farm was barely enough / not enough to scrape by, even at that time. Now everything is so heavily tied up with legislation to t…

Yes, if you compare farmers with actors, they seem to have similar problems with stability of employment, low pay, and hard working conditions. In both cases these are partly caused by unavoidable factors about the industry, partly caused by ruthless suppliers, customers, investors and so on, partly caused (let's be honest) by the fact that many people make a lifestyle choice to do those professions, and will put up…

[deleted]

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#147

Post by jerome-jh » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #133

gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have cooperation without price-fixing.

Ultimately the problem is the price...

The problem is that cooperatives turned into monopolies, becoming inefficient. So it is both a price and organizational problem.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#148

Post by reedjosh » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #133

gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have cooperation without price-fixing.

Ultimately the problem is the price...

I'm seeing a resurgence of competition on quality too. I personally purchase organic grass fed glass bottled milk from local farms. Sounds snobby and onerous, but it's available at any Whole Foods.

Quality food is truly worth it. Milk should not be a commodity. I know it's a bit more expensive, but I promise eating quality reduces the need for quantity.

Our bodies are starving on this poorly made junk commodity food.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#149

Post by YinglingLight » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

pullmn wrote: post #127

duxup wrote: post #87

Farming as a business gets idealized in the US and there's often this concept of a good old days when family farming was profitable and stable. But historically speaking farming has always been a boom and bust industry. Even during the land rush days in the US the amount of space granted per farm was barely enough / not enough to scrape by, even at that time. Now everything is so heavily tied up with legislation to t…

Yes, if you compare farmers with actors, they seem to have similar problems with stability of employment, low pay, and hard working conditions. In both cases these are partly caused by unavoidable factors about the industry, partly caused by ruthless suppliers, customers, investors and so on, partly caused (let's be honest) by the fact that many people make a lifestyle choice to do those professions, and will put up…

You don't need Shakespeare to live

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#150

Post by nineplay » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

xipho wrote: post #145

nineplay wrote: post #95

I think he's glossing over the obvious. A friend of mine was just reminiscing about growing up in her family's dairy farm. Every Saturday morning, every Sunday morning, every Christmas you get up to take care of the cows. Feel sick? You've got to get up and take care of the cows. Want to go on vacation? Can't, there's no one you can leave the cows with. It's a hard life - maybe a satisfying life in some ways but ther…

You seem to equate hard work ethic with sustainability, this is false. You obviously have never experienced the joys of winters with nothing todo except read, learn, cook and play, because you worked insanely hard on the farm for 6-8 months of the growing season (being your own boss, but who cares about that).

At risk of stating the obvious, dairy cows do not have a growing season. Cows are a 365 days-a-year commitment.