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On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

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Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#111

Post by slfnflctd »

dkersten wrote: post #100
tweetle_beetle wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need a whole farm just to provide nutrition for you family, even if it does have some livestock, or is there more to it than that? I remember reading about some amazing results that can be achieved on very small patches of land, with the right techniques, tools and planning. The official website is light on details, this article is better [2]. [1] https://www.themarketgardener.com/ [2] https://www.resil…

I remember reading something about a square foot or three of tightly packed grow space (using vegetables that complement each other or whatever; I also remember reading about was it tiered gardening?) is enough to feed a person. My mother grows a bunch of vegetables in about ~3 square feet of space and while its not everything she eats (vegetable or otherwise), it does cover a good bit and she always has more of what…

> a square foot or three of tightly packed grow space [...] is enough to feed a person

That seems insanely optimistic to me. I've done a lot of reading about people's attempts to feed themselves with home-grown agriculture, and it's way more difficult than many assume. I would multiply that square footage requirement about 1000x before even trying it-- and that's if all possible relevant research is implemented and everything goes smoothly.

I tried & failed to find an article I read a few years ago which broke down a whole bunch of the math behind this, but here is a video that matches pretty closely with what I've read elsewhere (despite being short on sources): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=926Z6wzf278

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#112

Post by derriz »

duxup wrote: post #87

Farming as a business gets idealized in the US and there's often this concept of a good old days when family farming was profitable and stable. But historically speaking farming has always been a boom and bust industry. Even during the land rush days in the US the amount of space granted per farm was barely enough / not enough to scrape by, even at that time. Now everything is so heavily tied up with legislation to t…

I agree nostalgia can cloud judgement but there has been a fundamental shift in the nature of farming in the last few decades.

Btw, this is a perspective from Europe - the same thing has happened with family farming here. While I didn't grow up on one, I spent a lot of time on my grandparent's farm.

Farming has never been easy but the amount of capital required (represented by land, livestock and machinery) to run an economically viable farm has increased enormously increasing the risk. By viable I mean profitable enough to provide an average family with a median income.

My grandparents raised 4 kids, putting 3 of them through 3rd level education and never really wanted for much purely on income from a 90 acre farm. All their neighbours and the entire landscape was covered with family farms of this size plus or minus. What's left now are some old bachelors barely surviving or part-timers (who generally inherited the land) with "real" jobs who keep some dry stock or rent out their land to big producers.

It's sad to see a way of life disappear but I don't see any alternative. From an economic perspective, it can only be supported by transferring income from others to small farmers. This is effectively what happened in the past through higher prices paid for agricultural produce. As a share of disposable income, spending on food is a fraction (well under 10% in the west) of what it was in the past - which hurt the poor disproportionally.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#113

Post by gruez »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #110
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #73

unfortunately the cow seems out of the barn for reasons other than legislation being missing. Farmers have not adapted to changes in conditions and they had time to do so. The point of a union should not be to collute to raise prices. The point of a union should be to pool market power and resources to break monopolies in creameries, or pollution. Any farmer should have seen the writing on the wall to have 1 creamery…

> The point of a union should not be to collu[d]e to raise prices. The point of a union should be to pool market power and resources These are just different words for the same thing.

You can have cooperation without price-fixing.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#114

Post by cryptica »

I keep saying this and repeating over and over again... Yet keep getting downvoted. The monopolization of everything is caused by monetary policy. All these megacorps are not a natural phenomena. They are not competing on an even playing field.

Even die-hard capitalists who read Ayn Rand and watched her interviews will understand that monopolization should not happen without government intervention. The current monetary policy (of printing money and then giving control of it to existing capital holders based on how much capital they have) is bound to lead to this highly inefficient economic situation... One which takes the entire economy on a downward spiral while essentially bribing rich people with free money to keep playing along... Thus we get increasing inequality.

Then when the big corporations keep beating and buying up the competition (thanks to the disproportional amount of free credit that they have access to), they will claim that it's because they're more efficient (aka economies of scale) but in reality, the big players are just getting subsidized by free money from the government. Simple as that.

Give me access to 1 billion dollars of credit over 50 years and even with no industry experience, I can bankrupt all competing small businesses in any industry and in any city I want... Possibly in the entire country depending on the country.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#115

Post by thaumasiotes »

gruez wrote: post #113
thaumasiotes wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of a union should not be to collu[d]e to raise prices. The point of a union should be to pool market power and resources These are just different words for the same thing.

You can have cooperation without price-fixing.

What would you be cooperating to do?

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#116

Post by odonnellryan »

speeder wrote: post #18
ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because o…

I think it is ridiculous to blame vegans for this.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#117

Post by duxup »

derriz wrote: post #112
duxup wrote: post #87

Farming as a business gets idealized in the US and there's often this concept of a good old days when family farming was profitable and stable. But historically speaking farming has always been a boom and bust industry. Even during the land rush days in the US the amount of space granted per farm was barely enough / not enough to scrape by, even at that time. Now everything is so heavily tied up with legislation to t…

I agree nostalgia can cloud judgement but there has been a fundamental shift in the nature of farming in the last few decades. Btw, this is a perspective from Europe - the same thing has happened with family farming here. While I didn't grow up on one, I spent a lot of time on my grandparent's farm. Farming has never been easy but the amount of capital required (represented by land, livestock and machinery) to run an…

Yeah I'm fairly skeptical about trying to turn the tide of efficiencies and market forces in this case. It really seems to just be shuffling deck chairs and with some bad consequences.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#119

Post by slfnflctd »

andrew_ wrote: post #105
cies wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent To you! To me (also vegan) any animal in a cage is abhorrent. I want to be free and wild and I also want all others to be free and wild. Maybe some humans deserve to be caged for their behavior. Animals can never be guilty... > Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made. Exactly. Was…

This is yet more the kind of nonsensical, insufferable drivel that turns people away from rationally thinking about their food. Someone's preference for how and what they eat contributes nothing to conversation, and exists only to project a belief of superiority and collect pats on the back from like-minded thinkers.

If a sentient AI with superhuman intelligence were observing us, they would be utterly puzzled at the amount of waste and destruction we perpetuate through the meat & dairy industries for no reason other than ephemeral perceived pleasure through our taste buds.

If "someone's preference" - a completely subjective thing - is objectively less efficient and more harmful than doing something else, we can and do intervene to discourage such practices. No one should have to apologize for promoting something clearly better.

If you love meat and are willing to burn the planet down so you can keep eating it, fine. But don't pretend it's a choice without consequences or that it's necessary.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#120

Post by cies »

duxup wrote: post #90
cies wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farming as a business gets idealized And I understand that in case of plant growers. In case of livestock exploiters I dont see what's so "cool" about it.

I guess I was speaking more generally but as far as livestock there's certainly plenty if idolizing that too, even if some don't.

Stinking animals, caged or fenced up, slaughter looming over their pitiful existence. Nope. No glamour there as far as i see.
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