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How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

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Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#111

Post by pradn »

throwaway713 wrote: post #3

I don’t know anything about Indian culture; could someone who is from there shed some light on how prevalent the prejudiced mindset is? E.g., do 80% of people think the caste system is stupid and outdated whereas the other 20% still hold some prejudice toward Dalits? What about Indians that have moved to the U.S.? And is this issue improving quickly or slowly?

A good thing to watch is this episode of the Indian social issues show, Satyameva Jayate. (It's hosted by a major Bollywood actor.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPmAltGay3s

The episode shows contemporary discrimination against a woman of a so called "untouchable" caste. She is a PhD-holding lecturer at Delhi University, a major national research university. And even with her accomplishments, she sees discrimination in housing and in education. Of course, people without education or the accomplishments she has had deserve to live without prejudice as well.

I think a major problem is urban Indians or those who have migrated abroad not looking deeply into seeing how prevalent these issues actually are. I often hear that caste discrimination is a thing of the past or is on the way to oblivion from these folks. It's a bit maddening. More than 90% of urban Indians marry within their caste, and the number is at 95% for rural Indians. Now, multiply caste with language, dialect, economic class, education, skin color, and diet - you have a large number of complex identities that are seen as lesser by various groups. These don't necessarily form a total order, of course.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#112

Post by naravara »

iamshs wrote: post #65
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing this. While it is apparent that US job market is not a meritocracy, it simply cannot allow ( hell, afford ) to import bad practices from afar.

It is already in US and is being defended by Hindu organizations with reason like - ‘Caste discrimination is a Hindu right that should go unchallenged’ https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261

That sounds like an uncharitable interpretation of what HAF said, but I can't verify because they never link to the source statement and the article she points at is behind a paywall.

Come to think of it this "Attribute quotes to people and then say 'read the (paywalled) article' when someone asks for context" strategy seems like a pretty good way to spread misinformation.

Edit: Okay did some googling and found the source statement. That tweet is definitely a very bad faith misreading of HAF's statement which says:

> In its complaint, California argues that Cisco failed to address discrimination against one of its engineers by co-workers on the basis of his presumed caste. California goes on to state that caste is “a strict Hindu social and religious hierarchy” and therefore an integral part of Hindu teachings and practices. Framing its argument in this way, California is attempting to do what the Constitution clearly says it cannot, HAF said: defining Hindu religious doctrine for Hindus.

In other words, HAF isn't saying discrimination is a Hindu right. They're saying it's inappropriate for US Courts to define what constitutes "Hindu belief systems." This sounds appropriate since setting precedent in a court that defines anyone who professes belief in Hinduism as being casteist a priori would basically be opening the door to religious discrimination.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#115

Post by Mountain_Skies »

This goes beyond just the Indian caste system. We're importing all kinds of historical grievances from around the globe. I worked for a consultancy in a regional tech hub on the East Coast. I thought it was odd that all of my fellow software engineers were from China or Taiwan. Turned out that the head of software engineering was Pakistani and refused to hire anyone from India. Since the company had a strong preference for H1B holders, there wasn't much an Indian candidate could do about it or even find out the reason why they were getting passed over. On three occasion he was given Indian employees due to acquisitions and in all three cases he quickly ran them off or had them laid off.

What can be done about the above? Do racial discrimination laws even apply to the selection of H1B holders? The company was already getting away with favoring visa holders over citizens and permanent residents so there was no reason for them to fear not being able to get away with excluding Indian candidates due to our head of software engineering having a personal grudge against India. The only reason why I was hired was because they had a client with a need for someone with deep knowledge of Microware OS-9, which wasn't something they were able to find in their usual sources of employee candidates. Makes me wonder how many of these companies silently exist as black boxes that no one outside knows what discrimination is going on inside of them.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#116

Post by lotsofpulp »

ashneo76 wrote: post #102
iamshs wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is already in US and is being defended by Hindu organizations with reason like - ‘Caste discrimination is a Hindu right that should go unchallenged’ https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261

As a Hindu, I am ashamed. I am glad to not be part of any such orgs. This is despicable. US cannot afford to continue this.

The tweet does not substantiate its claims, at least not that I can see due to the source being paywalled.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#117

Post by gumby »

gabbo wrote: post #91
gumby wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My cousin reminded me the other day that back in the 80s I was introduced by innumerable mums as “attends MIT and has a green card”. Literally that was my entire “biography”. Edit: seems like thing have diverged since I had to worry about these things: The waiting time for non-Indian green cards is the same btw.

Not sure what you mean by non-Indian green cards exactly, but just to clarify, the waiting time for EB2/EB3 green cards for those in India is really dramatically behind everywhere else (final action dates are a rough proxy for "waiting time" but actually understate the problem): https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v...

Thanks, my wife’s wait (she wasn’t from India) was seven years but that was a while ago. I hadn’t realized things were diverging more recently.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#118

Post by connectsnk »

apexkid wrote: post #49

This article is as bullshit at it can get with no proof and random catch phrases on the lines of "ohh blacks are hated in America". Truth is, there is absolutely no place for cast in any top Indian engineering colleges. Millennials and GenZ does not give a single fuck to what the cast of a person is. That too in IITs were 90% students come from middle or poor class of society and have similar lifestyle. There can alw…

I can confirm. There are very fringe sections left in the society which are still practicing caste based discrimination. To get more clicks, news websites try to project this small minority as the truth of the whole nation.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#119

Post by munchbunny »

swa45 wrote: post #79
munchbunny wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the diplomatic synonym for "racist"/"classist"/"sexist"/etc. but it allows you to try to make the claim without having to do the work to specify the claim. In this case, I think the commenter meant "xenophobic", based on the parallels to Trump's rhetoric.

What you’re saying doesn’t track. To folks who mount these cultural hills, racism, classism, and sexism are adjacent to murder in severity. There is no reason to be diplomatic with a person who has offered those ideas. Why would a diplomatic way of making that allegation be necessary? The correct answer is that it’s a shibboleth to organize, and rally, like-minded people.

> To folks who mount these cultural hills, racism, classism, and sexism are adjacent to murder in severity.

If you're going to assume everyone who thinks those things are real problems believes something pretty much nobody actually believes, more power to you I guess? Seems problematic. By which I mean "intellectually dishonest", maybe a bit of posturing for likeminded people, maybe a shibboleth to organize and rally like-minded people.

> The correct answer is that it’s a shibboleth to organize, and rally, like-minded people.

Well, you've clearly already made up your mind.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#120

Post by ziftface »

UncleMeat wrote: post #78
iamshs wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism and caste endogamy is very different... caste is violence given stamp of approval through religion, you cannot escape it. Dalits are beheaded for wearing turban, riding a horse, taking their marriage procession from upper caste street. Moreover, it has present day support of the system in India. Hindu saint who classified the castes through his treatise, Manu Smriti, finds his statue in front of Rajasthan High…

> Dalits are beheaded for wearing turban, riding a horse, taking their marriage procession from upper caste street. I mean, that sounds precisely analogous to lynching black people for holding certain kinds of jobs, having wealth, or smiling at a white woman. I know extremely little about India so it is possible that I am entirely ignorant. But the situations you describe here sound like 1:1 matches to racist violenc…

Also, the legal system in America is absolutely racist/classist as well. You could be optimistic and think of that as a holdover from more racist times, but either way it does kind of track with the story the op linked to.
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