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Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

antipope.org

171–180 of 187 posts

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#171

Given that several Stross novels deal with uploaded intelligence, I was surprised that no mention of this was made. In Accelerando, for instance, his characters travel three light years in a coke-can sized spaceship powered by a laser stationed around Jupiter. It seems unlikely at best that we'll ever attempt interstellar travel in our current organic bodies. The idea of taking along an atmosphere, food, water, and e…

Honestly, if we have uploaded intelligence why would you send it via a spaceship. Just transmit it via an extremely powerful laser. May want to transmit it multiple times to account for errors. Of course, there should already be some strong AI waiting for you on the other side.

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#172
Just 5 days ago...

"Kiwi developer Glenn Martin, who has been working on his flying machine for 30 years, intends to make it available on the market in 2012 at a cost of about US$100,000. Last month, the jetpack made its first high-altitude test flight, taking a dummy pilot to 1,500 meters under remote control while Mr Martin watched from a helicopter."

For more, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/8566096/Martin-Jetpack...

Humans will make it to the asteroids, to the rest of the Milky Way, and fill the Universe.

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#173
post #6

That's a good, grounded assessment of the scale of the problem. I too believe that the human colonization of space, even near-space (ie within the orbit of the Moon) is a long way off. The energy costs are simply too high and resources too cheap on the Earth to make it viable (in spite of typical SF fodder of asteroid mining). This is a problem because with 6.5 billion people we're using up resources. Fast. Anyway, I…

Actually you just need a few females, and a large store of sperm to provide genetic diversity in further generations. If you used inseminated eggs (so the mother has no genetic relation) you can bring the human race to another planet with only a few people. When you get to the habitable planet, you let the population grow. Also since a large genetic pool comes with the colonists, it limits genetic drift.

You should run this idea past your female friends. Assuming you still have any...

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If we can't travel faster than the speed of light using existing understanding of Nature - we can. At least the Universe provides the example of galaxies traveling with faster than the speed of light relative to each other. The same machinery is suggested in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive The opponents state that the energy requirement of the drive is higher than the whole Universe's energy. Obvio…

Galaxies are not actually moving faster than light. The distance between them is growing at a rate that would suggest FTL speeds because the universe is expanding.

looks like you didn't get it that the drive i linked to is supposed to use the same principle of space expansion and contraction.

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#175
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a minimum amount of mass necessary for an object to be able to collapse upon itself and form a black hole, such as a large star does when the outward pressure due to the internal fusion reaction stalls. However, any amount of mass can (in classical theory) be compressed far enough to obtain a Schwarzschild radius, from which light cannot escape. This has only to do with the density, not the total mass: a ver…

OK, now that we're already discussing this topic. I just read this quote from Wikipedia: """If one accumulates matter at nuclear density (the density of the nucleus of an atom, about 1018 kg/m3; neutron stars also reach this density), such an accumulation would fall within its own Schwarzschild radius at about 3 solar masses and thus would be a stellar black hole.""" I take that to mean that if I wanted to create a b…

Well, that is why I said 'classical theory' :). I have no clue whether QM allows it and I don't think anyone does: that would amount to knowing the true nature of the 'singularity' inside a black hole.

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Galaxies are not actually moving faster than light. The distance between them is growing at a rate that would suggest FTL speeds because the universe is expanding.

looks like you didn't get it that the drive i linked to is supposed to use the same principle of space expansion and contraction.

Galaxies are not spaceships. Just because the natural expansion of the universe affects galaxies (and everything else) doesn't mean it's possible to artificially expand and contract the universe.

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#178
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate shift implies a necessary change to infrastructure: cities that once did not have to deal with flash floods will, for example. Municipal trees will die. Areas that grow colder will have non-insulated water pipes burst. There is no need to form greater bureaucratic nightmares to adapt for such problems, only a general willingness to remake our urban environments before it becomes dreadfully expensive. Note the…

But how much will forcing those infrastructure and cultural and societal changes cost NOW, versus letting them happen naturally and gradually the same way we switched from wood to coal to petroleum and from muscle to steam to electricity? Extremely simple illustration: Do you think people in Florida will be living 10 feet under water in 100 years? No, they will move before then. But they don't have to move now, so wh…

> But how much will forcing those infrastructure and cultural and societal changes cost NOW, versus letting them happen naturally and gradually the same way we switched from wood to coal to petroleum and from muscle to steam to electricity?

I believe you might profitably examine your implicit assumptions about what constitutes "natural" and "gradual" adaptation of industry. As has been pointed out by another commenter, the progression has not been as linear as you have proposed: many industries in the world _still_ use wood as fuel, hence my prior deforestation comment. (Note that farmed wood promotes a monoculture ecosystem, effectively declaring creatures dependent on the prior heterogeneous environment unimportant.) Western countries have tended, historically speaking, to incentivise new industrial developments. Often this was done at the precipice of a disaster and done at great cost: much less money and life might have been spent had the work been gradual.

> Extremely simple illustration: Do you think people in Florida will be living 10 feet under water in 100 years? No, they will move before then. But they don't have to move now, so why force them?

Consider the crushing burden of mass migration, the vast human cost. There have been several such in this century already; you may go to visit them and learn why _gradual_ migration is vastly preferable. Further, do not misunderstand me: I am not advocating that all residents of Florida move at one time; this change should happen gradually as a part of a prepared plan. Such plans are difficult to construct when individuals such as yourself are content to kick the can down the road and let the future sort it out. Human civilizations adapt necessarily to their surroundings; done consciously such adaptations need not be the source of untellable human suffering.

> Similarly, do you think we'll all be driving gas-guzzling SUVs in 100 years? Hell no. Oil just won't last that long, and our car culture will have died or switched to electric (or nuclear, or secret ooze) long before then anyway.

Consider the economic implications of "running dry". So much of the United State's infrastructure carries the implicit assumption of cheap gasoline and diesel that to suddenly (meaning the sudden increased cost over the span of a decade, say) go without would cause significant harm to our economy and world standing, relative to those nations that are preparing. Again, I stress _gradual_ change, but such change must be sustained by a willingness to tackle the problem directly and _not_ simply be willing to let the future work things out. Surely they will, but at greater expense than we who now decide the course of the world can manage.

> So why force the issue?

I hope I have made myself clear. If not: the necessary adaptations of human civilization in many areas will be extensive, expensive and time consuming. We can mitigate the second concern by performing those adaptations _before_ they are vital. Consider that the upgrade of infrastructure as a part of regular maintenance cycles is more tenable than sudden overhaul. We need only come to an agreement on the way in which we will upgrade; this is impossible when influential individuals deny the basic premise or assert that the future will somehow more efficiently solve our problems though they be exacerbated by the passage of time.

> I guess I'm just not seeing the urgency here.

I believe the urgency is largely manufactured by a news media predicated on the spread of unease, over zealous Chicken Littles and anti-reactionary misinformation. We have a problem _now_. Our technological sophistication is such that we can prepare ourselves for this problem without the death or displacement of billions. What little urgency does actually exist at this point does so because the changes that must be made cannot be made fifteen years out; a period of fifty to seventy-five years, depending on global economy, is more reasonable. Cuts in significantly to your hypothetical one-hundred years, no?

> And whatever urgency there is, doesn't seem to be fixable in the short term.

No, it is not. This is why it is preferable to begin the process of adaptation before it is a matter of dire consequence.

> Ocean levels will rise. They already have. So let's focus on mitigation rather than the already failed task of prevention.

I believe you read my original statement with a biased eye. We must necessarily adapt--by the time we began to notice the effect our habits had on the global climate it was likely too late to reverse the process. That said, we would do well to live up to our self-given taxonomic title and not exacerbate the problem. It looks like we will continue, especially as developing countries fire up their own furnaces.

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#179
>The future extinction of the human species cannot affect you if you are already dead: strictly speaking, it should be of no personal concern.

Nor should the future bankruptcy of your country concern you as long as it happens after you're dead. Even if your descendents have to pay the piper for it.

Re: Why we are unlikely to ever leave the solar system.

#180
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those of you who, like me, thought a black hole spaceship is a spaceship travelling through black holes, I made an awesome diagram of how it's supposed to work. http://www.juretriglav.si/images/blackholespaceship.png

How the heck do you hold the black hole in place?

Magnetic fields?
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