On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#21

Post by corty » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:01 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #6

There were a news article this fall about how demand for more ecological produced dairy and meat has gone down while public opinion about ecological produced dairy and meat has gone up. The explanation provided there is that while people increasingly care more about how the dairy and meat is produced, those same people are also reducing their consumption. This seems to be an area where pollution control and stricter…

Also, ecological production has suffered several scandals, quality problems and marketing snafus that have lead to it decreasing in popularity or getting less ecological:

E.g. there have been scandals around contaminated ecological ("Bio-" in Germany) eggs because chicken droppings more easily contaminate eggs when nests and cages are larger and more free-range. Ecological vegetables had acceptance problems because the lack of pesticides meant that the looks were less appealing in the supermarket, leading to the increased use of "green" pesticides (that is, "naturally occuring" poison) and barrier methods that harm wildlife like nets and foils. Ecological meat has also consistently over-promised and under-delivered on the customer-apparent quality of the product. You just don't notice if the steak you are eating came from a happy cow...

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#22

Post by gizmondo » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:04 PM UTC

corty wrote: post #3

While I can appreciate the author's nostalgia, I cannot really agree on some of the criticism: The manure problem is a problem at any size of farm, the amount of manure per cow is somewhat constant. So concentrating all the cows in some factory farm doesn't really make anything worse as long as the total number of cows is somewhat constant. The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the famil…

> The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the family farms' systemic problem of child labour and child exploitation. Which the author glosses over in his point of view.

He doesn't gloss over it, he glorifies it as "family bonding" or something. It's disgusting.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#23

Post by ilikerashers » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:09 PM UTC

gizmondo wrote: post #22

corty wrote: post #3

While I can appreciate the author's nostalgia, I cannot really agree on some of the criticism: The manure problem is a problem at any size of farm, the amount of manure per cow is somewhat constant. So concentrating all the cows in some factory farm doesn't really make anything worse as long as the total number of cows is somewhat constant. The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the famil…

> The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the family farms' systemic problem of child labour and child exploitation. Which the author glosses over in his point of view. He doesn't gloss over it, he glorifies it as "family bonding" or something. It's disgusting.

How? Helping on a family farm has been done for generations.

A corporate exploiting Illegal immigration is a preferred solution? Interesting values.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#24

Post by CuriouslyC » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:09 PM UTC

corty wrote: post #3

While I can appreciate the author's nostalgia, I cannot really agree on some of the criticism: The manure problem is a problem at any size of farm, the amount of manure per cow is somewhat constant. So concentrating all the cows in some factory farm doesn't really make anything worse as long as the total number of cows is somewhat constant. The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the famil…

Manure isn't a problem if you free range your animals, have landscape structures to prevent runoff and have other animals that eat bugs in the same space such as chickens. Then it just contributes fertility to the land.

Children working their family farm are learning real skills. Learning how to produce food is vastly more important than american history or most of the literature they would learn in school.

Industrial farming is stupid, and totally unnecessary. Using permaculture and silvopasture, you can produce much more (and more nutritious) food in the same space, while improving (rather than destroying) fertility. If done right, you don't need pesticides, your animals don't need antibiotics or dewormers, and the whole thing mostly runs itself aside from a little pruning/herding and a lot of picking. The only downside to these methods is they take some time to get going, and they require knowledgeable farm workers rather than dirt cheap migrant laborers or a combine.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#25

Post by gizmondo » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

ilikerashers wrote: post #23

gizmondo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the family farms' systemic problem of child labour and child exploitation. Which the author glosses over in his point of view. He doesn't gloss over it, he glorifies it as "family bonding" or something. It's disgusting.

How? Helping on a family farm has been done for generations. A corporate exploiting Illegal immigration is a preferred solution? Interesting values.

Owning slaves was also done for generations, so not sure what your point is.

Both are bad, but according to my values exploiting children is somewhat worse than exploiting adults, yes.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#26

Post by coppolaemilio » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #18

ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because o…

Did you know that the soybeans planted there are 100% to feed cattle?

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#27

Post by urthor » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

On one point the article has made.

Canadians are really really unhappy with their milk system, they have some of the highest priced milk in the entire world and they despise it.

"probably through a supply management program similar to what Canada has" is a nonstarter for cityfolk. It would mean $4 milk.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#28

Post by dbg31415 » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:18 PM UTC

> It seems hard to believe but at one point it was possible to make a decent living as a dairy farmer with a small herd (what’s now considered small, anyway). In 1981 my dad had a herd of 82 milking cows and he cracked the top 50 in all of northwest Wisconsin’s 22 counties for average milk production.

> As for the distant future, I imagine it will look similar to the consolidation in other livestock industries, where a handful of mega corporations dictate production and the “farmers” are more like serfs, deeply in debt and entirely beholden to the corporation.

Mirrors a lot of what my family went through. Grew up on a cattle ranch in the 80s... ranches were already 5-10x larger than they had been the generation before. Efficiency and capitalism and finding better ways to solve problems... totally get the reasons for the consolidation. Just sucks for the people. Farmers and Ranchers have been a dying breed for so very long now. And replacing the family farm with a factory farm -- practical or reasonable or not -- it just seems so... offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRDaPEaDJ7E

Interesting with the dairy cow milk production graphs since the 1970s. Probably belongs on this list.

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#29

Post by k__ » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:18 PM UTC

urthor wrote: post #27

On one point the article has made. Canadians are really really unhappy with their milk system, they have some of the highest priced milk in the entire world and they despise it. "probably through a supply management program similar to what Canada has" is a nonstarter for cityfolk. It would mean $4 milk.

We have rather cheap milk here in Germany, because it's heavily subsidized.

But right now plant based alternatives are on the rise. I didn't buy milk for years now.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#30

Post by ilikerashers » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:19 PM UTC

gizmondo wrote: post #25

ilikerashers wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? Helping on a family farm has been done for generations. A corporate exploiting Illegal immigration is a preferred solution? Interesting values.

Owning slaves was also done for generations, so not sure what your point is. Both are bad, but according to my values exploiting children is somewhat worse than exploiting adults, yes.

Do you classify helping with chores around the house as child exploitation too? As on a farm, kids have chores. They're not working night and day.