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Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

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Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#181

Post by buran77 »

dijit wrote: post #96
peterkelly wrote: post #94

Has everyone forgotten about Tempora [1], XKEYSCORE [2], PRISM, [3] and the other Snowden revelations [4]? This kind of shit has been going on for at least a decade in various forms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure...

Doesn’t really make it ok though. We should absolutely keep it in the public eye lest it be relegated to acceptance.

It doesn't make it ok at all. But this is a double edged sword. Just keeping this in the public eye but without hard action against it simply normalizes the situation as "problem that's only big enough to complain about". People need to see action being taken, like right to repair initiatives that bore fruit.

Unfortunately unlike right to repair, this is a fight against a government which already has too much leverage on anyone and gaining more, making the fight progressively more difficult. It's clear that the gov't will use any power at it's disposal to fight against any such citizen initiative.

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#182

Post by StavrosK »

KoftaBob wrote: post #177
tomcooks wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese model works, and it's what every government wants. The rest is marketing.

It "works" if your priority is getting things done, but it absolutely does not work if you value liberty and personal freedom. Ask minority groups in China like Christians wanting to build a church or Uyghurs how well the model works.

Seems to me that the GP meant "it works for the government and politicians".

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#183

Post by hkt »

bennyp101 wrote: post #145
hkt wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the charter specifically forbid companies from reporting what they store? I'm not familiar with it in detail. I'd be surprised..

Basically, If you are required to store the data under an order, then you are not legally allowed to disclose the fact you have received an order, or what you are storing. Same as getting a request from the NCA asking for details on an individual, can't disclose that you received one.

Ah. They're the same as the old RIPA requests then. In another life I worked for a company which processed them from time to time. It is a dreadful shame that stuff has survived.

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#184

Post by adwww »

jozvolskyef wrote: post #137
mathw wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does anybody other than policing and security agencies need access to this stuff? NHS? Fire and rescue? WHAT? They don't have a role in investigating crime. Okay the fire brigade do post-fire analysis of possible arson etc. but that's not something you need access to somebody's internet history for.

The NHS investigate people for abusing their authority as medical professionals. I don't know how they divide the work with the police, but they do have their own people for investigations.

Also for fraudulent malpractice cases. An investigation made the news recently where a lady was suing a hospital.

She claimed some massive disability following an operation, and the hospital's own investigations team followed her and filmed her jogging, drinking, etc.

It would have been using these same powers to do the surveillance work.

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#186

Post by logicchains »

ricardobayes wrote: post #146
yrgulation wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who are “they” to “ask even a little of it from us”. With all due respect but this sounds as if “they” are not the people we send there to manage _our_ countries, but rather a cast of all loving all watching overloads that we should feed a bit of our freedoms now and then to keep us fed, safe and well. And we all know how that worked in history.

Well we just saw with covid how it works out if everyone gets to do what they want. Too much freedom is just as harmful as too little. I would argue the only working model was the ancient Romans', having two leaders, a wartime leader and a 'fair-weather one'. It also requires the population to be grown-up enough to know their freedoms can and should be limited at times for their own good. No wonder why 'full citizens…

>Too much freedom is just as harmful as too little.

Covid killed what, 0.1% of the population at most, and the average age of death was over 80. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot killed well over an order of magnitude more than that.

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#187

Post by doggodaddo78 »

peterkelly wrote: post #94

Has everyone forgotten about Tempora [1], XKEYSCORE [2], PRISM, [3] and the other Snowden revelations [4]? This kind of shit has been going on for at least a decade in various forms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure...

Mass, warrantless surveillance in the US has be going on for 30+ years, I can assure you.

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#188

Post by doggodaddo78 »

nvarsj wrote: post #166
morrbo wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person from the UK, no I've not forgotten. The difference here (and this is NOT excusing them) is that you've gone from a series of systems which didn't officially exist, accessible from the select few of intelligence agencies and no doubt secure as hell into private ones which are controlled by people like BT. Yep, BT. The same BT who are laying off 10k staff this year because they need to cut costs. This isn't…

Let's not forget who brought us the wonderful law: Theresa May, as home secretary. Architect of the Windrush scandal, for which she took 0 responsibility. She probably envisioned the Home office doing mass denial of visas based on a lookup of applicant names with IP addresses deemed to be related to terrorist activity.

TM is a plutokleptocratic fascist Tory who sticks it to "the little people" at every opportunity.

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#189

Post by bregma »

feralimal wrote: post #173
eecc wrote: post #113

What I don’t get is this: our governments - “ours” being the group of parliamentary democracies - routinely diss authoritarian ones such as China - and rightfully so - for their violations against human rights, among which that to habeas corpus, privacy, and reasonable suspicion. To the point that we agonized over and sabotaged contact tracing apps, which could have helped a lot in fighting COVID, over claims to priv…

What helps, I find, is to think of governments as administrations. The civil service does implements whatever it has been told. Politicians are voted in - this is a slight of hand to distract the public. (I think of politics as a soap opera for the middle classes.) All the while the real governors operate through global undemocratic organisations, such as the UN and the WHO.

The UN and the WHO are not covert control operations but simply troughs where the friends of the rich can feed.

The real governors operate from their country clubs and banquettes. No proper kingmaker would be so obvious as to grab headlines or make public announcements. Where is the personal enrichment in that?

A simple rule of thumb: if you know who they are, they're not the people in control.

Re: Two UK Broadband ISPs Trial New Internet Snooping System

#190

Post by tweetle_beetle »

dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #58
cm2187 wrote: post #4

Is a datacentre considered an ISP in this respect? Between vpns and just remote desktoping into a VM, it seems trivial to circumvent to real criminals while being a privacy nightmare to the rest of the population. There is a probability 1.000 that this data will be abused.

What I want to know is: what happened? I always think of this event 70 years ago [0]: > "police obtained the fingerprints of every male aged 16 and over who had been in the vicinity of Blackburn on the night of 14-15 May to compare their fingerprints to those left at the crime scene by the perpetrator. ... a milestone in the history of forensic science; this being the first time a mass fingerprinting exercise had bee…

I wonder if it's to do with the physicality of older data collection methods. In your example, the data collection method was very clear: getting your fingers black and ordered to perform an action with them by someone in uniform. The use of that data is even clearer: the potential for being executed.

It is very different to the newer methods where you don't necessarily know what is being collected or what it is being used for.

I saw discussed online the other day some alarmist comments about the government wanting to know "what your bedroom activities are" in response to receiving the census letter in the post and seeing a mention of sexuality. Putting aside the ignorance of conflating sex with sexuality, I thought it was interesting how hard this problem is for most people to deal with.

That same person no doubt uses multiple mainstream social media sites, has browsers full of tracking cookies, uses loyalty cards and has their data collected, sold and used for all sorts of things. But it's the letter through the front door, for, of all things, a function of society that is over 200 years old, that causes alarm.

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