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You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#71

Post by FeepingCreature »

cheschire wrote: post #39
ericd wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast, vast majority of people who disagree with the left are not fascists. The urge to label them fascists and make them seem monstrous and unworthy of engagement is the impulse leads to civil war.

I agree, but I would suggest you use the same logic about labelling anyone in any part of the political spectrum then. Using terms such as "the left" might seem less antagonistic than calling someone a "fascist" yet come across just as harshly when read / heard by someone who hears "the left" preached in the 2 minutes hate of their preferred news source.

Yeah but nobody here said "you can't talk with leftists, they're all extremists and closed-minded."

edit: At least nobody I've seen yet. People are probably gonna say it (this goes for any "it" as conversation length grows), but I'd expect it to be downvoted.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#72

Post by tsimionescu »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #4

Like most of these rants against "censorship" they skip over people's rights to restrict speech as a form of speech itself: there is no moral (or legal) right to give people you disagree with a forum or audience to express their view. Calling to silence others (that is, encouraging them to take your view of not giving them an audience) is fine as long as people have a choice on how to respond. If there is some notion…

So, if AT&T cut out phone service from union sympathizers, that would be OK, because they are just expressing their right to free speech?

I think there is such a thing as critical communication infrastructure, and even if it run by private companies, it should be protected from censorship. Whether all of FB or just private messaging fall under this is more debatable, but there have to be clear limits on what a company that facilitates communication between 1 billion people can do.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#73

Post by Griffinsauce »

laurent92 wrote: post #45
Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

Science. Science is an excellent framework. This is where what you call “fascists” try to lead you all the time. We revert to science because leftist don’t recognize our lived experiences don’t seem to matter to you (e.g. a daughter raped by people who should have been already in prison, was liberated out of ideology, and said he had no good intention in our country), so we come back to statistics to try to sort the…

Railing against the word "fascist" by attacking "leftists" is not a very effective approach, especially if you truly seek unity. (which HN guidelines force me to have to assume here)

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#74

Post by FeepingCreature »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #13

If you cannot censor away opinions, if suppression of ideas doesn't work then why in exactly these kinds of articles do people bemoan it as dangerous? I may agree that most censorship is wrong but it does work. It worked for centuries to help maintain systems of inequality. It worked for centuries to maintain familial control and enforce sexual monoculture in many countries. Information control works so well, it prev…

> If you cannot censor away opinions, if suppression of ideas doesn't work then why in exactly these kinds of articles do people bemoan it as dangerous?

They may think censorship doesn't work but can still do damage, such as by lowering the standing and integrity of the left, damaging the liberal commons, or paradoxically making censored ideas more appealing.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#75

Post by FeepingCreature »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #4

Like most of these rants against "censorship" they skip over people's rights to restrict speech as a form of speech itself: there is no moral (or legal) right to give people you disagree with a forum or audience to express their view. Calling to silence others (that is, encouraging them to take your view of not giving them an audience) is fine as long as people have a choice on how to respond. If there is some notion…

> there is no moral (or legal) right to give people you disagree with a forum or audience to express their view.

I think there actually is such a moral obligation.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#76

Post by freebuju »

sagichmal wrote: post #14

Eliminate? No. Reduce to the point of practical irrelevance? Yep. Deplatforming works.

Deplatforming solves a problem. And only temporarily in the abundance of VPN & encrypted technologies. IMO it makes things even worse since these groups will congregate in secret much further away from the public eye where they can perpetuate unbalanced and unhealthy ideas.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#77

Post by bopbeepboop »

Bud wrote: post #61
bopbeepboop wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Free speech” in the moral sense is exactly that people who operate civil infrastructure shouldn’t use their privilege for censorship. So... people who believe in “free speech” as a moral value will disagree with your first paragraph — and hence, your entire post. You assume your conclusion, so your argument fails to be persuasive. “I disagree with what you say, but I’ll fight to the death to defend your right to say…

We don't have a "moral duty" to force corporations to allow Nazis on their platform, though. The Nazis are perfectly capable of building their own platform.

[dead]

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#78

Post by JamisonM »

I feel like the author should consider the /actual/ alternative.. Jobbik, etc with real governing power in places that do not "censor" instead of citing 13% support for fascism in France.

It is a complex issue, but censorship does "do" something, lots of research out there about how making things like QAnon just a little harder to access trims off support at the edges. If you want to make this argument you have to reckon with those facts.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#80

Post by Griffinsauce »

tsimionescu wrote: post #72
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #4

Like most of these rants against "censorship" they skip over people's rights to restrict speech as a form of speech itself: there is no moral (or legal) right to give people you disagree with a forum or audience to express their view. Calling to silence others (that is, encouraging them to take your view of not giving them an audience) is fine as long as people have a choice on how to respond. If there is some notion…

So, if AT&T cut out phone service from union sympathizers, that would be OK, because they are just expressing their right to free speech? I think there is such a thing as critical communication infrastructure, and even if it run by private companies, it should be protected from censorship. Whether all of FB or just private messaging fall under this is more debatable, but there have to be clear limits on what a compan…

> the problem there lies in the market power of the monopolies, not their speech.
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