For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation • Hacker News Board

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#141

Post by georgemcbay » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 12:18 AM UTC

contextfree wrote: post #108

ChuckMcM wrote: post #104

I have to agree with the Chronicle's basic point which is that Microsoft has talked about "cloud computing" for a long time and not delivered anything. Even a bad anything. Its a very good example of the Innovator's Dilemma [1] in action, you've got some smart folks who see a future problem, and start creating interesting technology and vision around that problem, and then the reality that the company doesn't "need"…

Huh? They've delivered lots of stuff. Some bad stuff, some good stuff. The real problem is the lack of cohesion.

I agree. It is the lack of cohesion that is killing them in the 'cloud'. Not just in the sense that there isn't a unified UX for all their stuff (though that is also true), but they are so non-unified that they often have multiple products that do the same basic things, causing end-user confusion and quite simply too many choices. [eg. Sync, Live Mesh, SkyDrive... which is right for 'me' if I'm a non-techie and don't understand the subtle differences in each? Who knows... I'll just use Dropbox!]

(FWIW I'm a big fan of Windows Live Mesh, but I've known more than a handful of non-techies who were just confused by it when I suggested it due to the related-but-different products that pop up when they are trying to learn more about it).

This does seem to be a problem they are aware of given the unification work they've done with the products I used as an example, but they still have a very long way to go on this.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#142

Post by angstrom » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 12:57 AM UTC

contextfree wrote: post #108

ChuckMcM wrote: post #104

I have to agree with the Chronicle's basic point which is that Microsoft has talked about "cloud computing" for a long time and not delivered anything. Even a bad anything. Its a very good example of the Innovator's Dilemma [1] in action, you've got some smart folks who see a future problem, and start creating interesting technology and vision around that problem, and then the reality that the company doesn't "need"…

Huh? They've delivered lots of stuff. Some bad stuff, some good stuff. The real problem is the lack of cohesion.

Ironically, the cohesion has little to do with technical knowhow or marketing. Microsoft effectively lost a decade due to their anti-competitive practices and maneuvering in the late 90s. They were maneuvering to unify the desktop/Internet and easily could have.

Instead, the penalties resulted in a lot of backtracking and some very cautious positioning that cost them the competitive edge while tiptoeing through the legalese.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#143

Post by skybrian » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 1:04 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #117

jodrellblank wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has talked about "cloud computing" for a long time and not delivered anything. Even a bad anything. They haven't delivered Live SkyDrive, or Windows Live, or http://www.microsoft.com/windowsazure/ or http://www.microsoft.com/online/exchange-hosted-services.asp... or http://www.microsoft.com/hosting/en/us/solutions/hostedcrm.a... or http://www.microsoft.com/online/sharepoint-online.aspx or http://www.hotmail…

In all of those things I see a "me too!" response to some other product. Windows Live Gmail services Azure Amazon AWS / Google AppServ Sharepoint DropBox / Google {Docs|Groups} Hotmail Gmail MSN Music iTunes But what the Chronicle was pointing out (and others here) is that the iCloud stuff is (if Jobs is accurate) the 'rest' of your UX experience with everything in their product line. For me its the difference betwee…

Google Maps on Android has some offline caching now, so sometimes it does work. (Though as well as if it had the whole database.)

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#144

Post by bigiain » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 1:39 AM UTC

X-Istence wrote: post #140

bigiain wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't they buy hotmail after it became wildly popular? I recall hearing inside stories of the difficulties they had moving it off the Sun hardware/OS onto their own OS...

They bought it well before gmail even came around. Hotmail when they bought it was running on top of FreeBSD not Solaris. Microsoft even has an entire document on how they did the migration: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb496985.aspx

Thanks for the link, 1997 &2000, eh? No wonder my recollection is so vague...

I notice the article mentions "various unix Systems" then goes on to talk exclusively of the FreeBSD web front end. I still have vague (perhaps 12 year old) memories aout the actual mail storage and management being Sun kit... (mostly from the point of view of a bunch of friends who worked at Sun being outrageously amused at the ballsup of multiple attempts at migration...)

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#145

Post by dorian-graph » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 1:57 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #104

I have to agree with the Chronicle's basic point which is that Microsoft has talked about "cloud computing" for a long time and not delivered anything. Even a bad anything. Its a very good example of the Innovator's Dilemma [1] in action, you've got some smart folks who see a future problem, and start creating interesting technology and vision around that problem, and then the reality that the company doesn't "need"…

How can any sane person say Microsoft has not delivered anything cloud computing related? That seems similar to saying the sun doesn't exist while staring at it.

Unless you're blind or have not been paying any attention to Microsoft for the past ~ > 4 years . .

Others have put forward [incomplete] lists of Microsoft's various 'cloud' services and I'll add one.

Microsoft Azure. Hell, wasn't there a story on the frontpage of HN a day or so ago that iCloud uses it? I haven't read much into it so it may be a rumour.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#146

Post by dorian-graph » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 2:00 AM UTC

ezy wrote: post #103

Microsoft killed their own brand. Through their own efforts, Microsoft means Office, which means corporate. Unsurprisingly, their best consumer success is only tangentially associated with their name. "Microsoft Xbox" sounds like "Accounting Bouncy-house" to most people. There's a little bit of a dissonance when you remember that, yeah, Microsoft made this game system. Even Windows, which is used by a majority of con…

Well, if they killed their brand they're now resurrecting it.

Who does not know of the Xbox? What average family does not want Office on their PC/Mac? Look at the success of Windows7.. and so on..

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#147

Post by dorian-graph » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 2:03 AM UTC

dstein wrote: post #129

ezy wrote: post #103

Microsoft killed their own brand. Through their own efforts, Microsoft means Office, which means corporate. Unsurprisingly, their best consumer success is only tangentially associated with their name. "Microsoft Xbox" sounds like "Accounting Bouncy-house" to most people. There's a little bit of a dissonance when you remember that, yeah, Microsoft made this game system. Even Windows, which is used by a majority of con…

Also "From the makers of Internet Explorer" doesn't exactly have a nice ring to it. Microsoft has a bad track record in exactly the areas that "the cloud" is supposed to fix (security, stability, backups, crash-free, virus-free, maintenance-free, "it just works"). Their PR team has a big job ahead of them.

They're now doing a lot better now -- and have been for a few years, it seems.

People love Windows7 and the virus/security thing is now no longer cool to say. Microsoft Security Essentials (MSE) is widely proclaimed as one of the best security apps available -- recently there was a thread on Reddit asking for 'Must have free apps' and seemingly every second person was suggesting MSE. In regards to maintenance, registry cleaners, defraggers and the like all seem to be fading away from our view. Like with security, speaking of 'BSODs' has dramatically died down and Win7 is not known for stability issues.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#148

Post by dorian-graph » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 2:07 AM UTC

forensic wrote: post #139

paulitex wrote: post #96

Does anyone else feel like the cheers of success for iCloud are a little premature? It's amazing that since it's Apple we automatically believe the "No, really I mean it this time!". Shouldn't previous performance be taken into consideration (.Mac, MobileMe)? Boy who cries cloud? Until iCloud is launched (not til the fall ), all we have is old broken promises, vapourware, and some very expensive data centres. I want…

There's nothing wrong with MobileMe or .Mac (they both have bad names -- thats the biggest issue) They weren't huge sweeping successes because they didn't have enough features and cost a LOT. But the features they did have worked well. MobileMe was just .Mac rebranded with more features. iCloud is just MobileMe rebranded with more features. Apple is smart for recognizing when they need to rebrand for communication fa…

Steve Jobs apparently thinks (Or thought) there was something wrong with them.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#149

Post by foobarbazetc » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 2:21 AM UTC

jwr wrote: post #32

programminggeek wrote: post #13

You know, the funny thing is that as nerds we tend to look at iCloud and say, "well I can already do that with Dropbox and Amazon Cloud Player". It's not revolutionary to us. Yet, can you imagine how many sales Apple will be able to take from Microsoft just by saying, "all your files are backed up and synced automatically between your iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch and Mac devices." No more worrying about backups, losing y…

Actually, they were very careful to never use the word 'sync'. You don't "sync" anything, the files are just there, on all your devices, always up to date. I think that is an important point.

The used the word sync several times.

It's not magic: it's syncing in the background.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#150

Post by MatthewPhillips » Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 2:29 AM UTC

blantonl wrote: post #133

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely. People forget about Apple's failures very quickly and continuously bring up Google's for some reason. Apple makes a lot of great products but they have as many duds as everyone. In the last year and half they've had at least 3 off the top of my head: Ping, GameCenter, and iBookstore. iBookstore isn't a total failure but it's not most users first, second, and sometimes even third choice. It was wid…

You are thinking about yourself as a skilled technical person, not the general consumer of Apple products. The whole "it just works" marketing statement from Apple is key. You and I will continue to use DropBox, Flickr, rsync, tar, scp, Aperture, svn, Eclipse, and jailbroken iPhones. The other 95% of Apple's customers will relish the fact that all the sudden, for free, they can take a picture on their iPhone, show it…

1) I don't use any of those services you assume I use because we both frequent the same website.

2) 95% of Apple's customers don't have an iPhone, iPad, and Apple TV (or a Mac). In fact, I would wager than the number of Apple customers who have more than 1 Apple product is south of 40%, the number with more than 2 south of 20%. Those who are entirely sold into the ecosystem, an extreme minority. Those people, the ones who might stand to gain from this service are the oddballs.