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Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

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Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#71

Post by 4ggr0 »

Sharlin wrote: post #55
zimpenfish wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you can find similar cycles in, e.g., home furnishings? The elite get their fancy furs and rugs from $foreign for $$$, eventually the trade improves, prices drop, the poors start furnishing with fancy furs and rugs, the elite move towards shiny minimalism, rinse and repeat. (cf just about anything technology-wise, I suppose)

Yes, you can absolutely see that same cycle everywhere, especially with anything fashion-related. And there are several layers, where every social class tries to imitate the one above them and distinguish themselves from the one below.

So what does the person wear who's on top of the pyramid? Probably Birkenstocks and a hoodie...

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#72

Post by vyrotek »

steinuil wrote: post #54
agurk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not knowing where you are from, I'd take a guess at American as there is a sharp divide in garlic use between Italian and Italian-American cusine. Italian food typically has a lot less garlic in it and if you had it in any of the classic dishes like ragù alla bolognese or risotto alla milanese it would be surprising. Dishes like spaghetti alla puttanesca or aglio e olio are classic examples where it is used. Marinara…

In my region (Piemonte) we certainly do. One of the most distinctive dishes is bagna cauda , which is a dip sauce made mainly of anchovies and tons of garlic. It's usually recommended that you eat it before a day where you don't have to go out and interact with other people because you'll smell really badly of garlic :)

Sounds delicious. I'm surprised I haven't heard of it. I'll have to ask my Nonna about it when I can travel to Entracque again. :)

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#73

Post by rcxdude »

zimpenfish wrote: post #33
tchalla wrote: post #4

> Serving richly spiced stews was no longer a status symbol for Europe's wealthiest families — even the middle classes could afford to spice up their grub. "So the elite recoiled from the increasing popularity of spices," Ray says. "They moved on to an aesthetic theory of taste. Rather than infusing food with spice, they said things should taste like themselves. Meat should taste like meat, and anything you add only…

I wonder if you can find similar cycles in, e.g., home furnishings? The elite get their fancy furs and rugs from $foreign for $$$, eventually the trade improves, prices drop, the poors start furnishing with fancy furs and rugs, the elite move towards shiny minimalism, rinse and repeat. (cf just about anything technology-wise, I suppose)

Absolutely has happened with anything expensive that has gotten cheaper. Sumptuary laws are another reaction which can occur.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#74

Post by qiqing »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #27
maury91 wrote: post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

Quoted post unavailable.

Sounds like an opinion that exactly matches the mentality that the article describes. And in modern day too!

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#75

Post by jfengel »

vyrotek wrote: post #72
steinuil wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my region (Piemonte) we certainly do. One of the most distinctive dishes is bagna cauda , which is a dip sauce made mainly of anchovies and tons of garlic. It's usually recommended that you eat it before a day where you don't have to go out and interact with other people because you'll smell really badly of garlic :)

Sounds delicious. I'm surprised I haven't heard of it. I'll have to ask my Nonna about it when I can travel to Entracque again. :)

It's got the bonus nerd connection in that a character on Babylon 5 spent an episode raving about it:

https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Bagna_Cauda

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#76

Post by ska »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #11

Well if you look at Chinese cuisine or even better, Cantonese one and dim sum, you realize that it was really to extract the most from scarce ingredients, not much meats or vegetables with a lot of carbs, and lots of seasoning to cover low quality ingredients. (I don't say the cuisine is bad nor not tasty, I am only talking about the cooking part).

> Well if you look at Chinese cuisine

If you look at Chinese cuisine, you'll probably find that trying to compare it to say "Italian cuisine" doesn't really work - probably better to compare it to "European cuisine" and try and capture the breadth and depth.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#77

Post by Sharlin »

4ggr0 wrote: post #71
Sharlin wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can absolutely see that same cycle everywhere, especially with anything fashion-related. And there are several layers, where every social class tries to imitate the one above them and distinguish themselves from the one below.

So what does the person wear who's on top of the pyramid? Probably Birkenstocks and a hoodie...

Indeed, I meant to add that the super-elite doesn't really care. They don't need to signal anything.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#78

Post by ska »

trashtester wrote: post #49

"Snobbery" is an incantation We speak to get a seretonin boost in the presence of people or groups that cause our seretonin levels to drop. It is one of many tools that can be used to attack or diminish those who are seen to have higher status than Us.

You've got the causation backward here. Snobbery is a tool that people use to assert or maintain social status, or in the attempt to attain it, especially at the margins (if you are clearly enough high status, you don't need it though you may choose it). Like other tools of the type (e.g. etiquette rules) it's main purpose is to define in-group/out-group dynamics in a way that is difficult to counterfeit for one reason or another.

The counter pressure to this is lower social status communities calling it out as a negative, which has some of the flavor you are idiosyncratically aiming for, but can also be group affirming.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#79

Post by jfengel »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #27
maury91 wrote: post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

Quoted post unavailable.

Just my perspective: being diplomatic practically never includes the term "wokeness". The term is pretty much exclusively disparaging. You're accusing people of being insincere in their preferences.

The word is a catchall ad hominem, used to dismiss any argument such that people don't really mean what they say, without having to address their actual argument at all. I'd suggest that any time you're tempted to use that in an argument, you might consider skipping that and talking instead about the actual thing under discussion.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#80

Post by ska »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #27
maury91 wrote: post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

Quoted post unavailable.

I think you mostly getting downvoted because you are trying to assert preference as somehow empirically supported, and using a weak argument-from-authority to try and justify it.

It doesn't really matter if most of the commenters here have far less industry experience than you; obviously it isn't hard to find far more qualified industry insiders than you who would disagree with your take. I'm not sure how much it matters though, cuisines don't live in restaurant kitchens anyway.

There is nothing wrong with having a food philosophy or aesthetic preference and pursuing it as far as you can. Pretending it is somehow demonstrably superior or some how "more mature" is at best problematic, and usually foolish.

You say "I cannot stomach Indian food"; fine - accept that it's your loss and move on. Trying to turn it into a virtue isn't going to get you far.

Perhaps to counter that take, I've been lucky enough to experience first rate offerings from all of the cuisines you mention and universally some of it has been really great for me. Does that just mean I'm somehow limited by a plebian palate, and somehow if I was just better educated I would have likes some of it less?

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