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UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#181
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven’t answered my question any more than they did. It’s not obvious at all how they think it’s different. It’s obviously harder to repair or replace, but it’s not clear whether they think the goal is to make it repairable.

To specifically answer your question, I don't think anyone's advocating for users to be provided with parts and schematics to repair a faulty L1 cache on a CPU, or for the CPU to be designed to support that kind of repair. Most "repairs" come in the form of replacing a component. Many products can be divided into components and those components can recursively be broken down into smaller components. At some point, th…

> and manufacturers abuse that to confuse people.

Do they? Given that you later claim we don’t have the necessary criteria to determine repairability, this seems like an unsupportable claim.

I hear just as much from people obsessed with repair that confuses people in the other direction.

> I myself thought component-level board repair was a dead end until I stumbled upon Rossmann's channel. I think both you and peterlk are getting to the same point:

> we need that criteria if we're going to reach the full potential of the right-to-repair movement.

We do and we also need to understand the costs at scale.

Repairability may not be better overall if it comes at the expense of durability, or more use of materials.

It’s not at all obvious, for example, that we have the numbers to support say, making iPhones more repairable vs simply designing them to neeed fewer more expensive repairs and then recycle them when failed.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#182
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is no evidence of that. iPhones are not thrown away. They are recycled." Are you fucking kidding me? https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ghana-ewaste-dump-electronic...

> Are you fucking kidding me? No. That article has nothing to do with iPhones and doesn’t even contain the word iphone anywhere on the page . That’s because iPhones are recycled. Those devices are supposedly more repairable Android devices.

Oh my got it's like talking to a cultist. Recycling for electronics rate is like 30%.

Do you imagine it's 100% for iPhones because Apple is such a special snowflake? Do you imagine that in the entire pile of hundred of tons of E-waste there is not a single discarded iPhone? I am prepared to bet my house on it, are you?

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#183
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you fucking kidding me? No. That article has nothing to do with iPhones and doesn’t even contain the word iphone anywhere on the page . That’s because iPhones are recycled. Those devices are supposedly more repairable Android devices.

Oh my got it's like talking to a cultist. Recycling for electronics rate is like 30%. Do you imagine it's 100% for iPhones because Apple is such a special snowflake? Do you imagine that in the entire pile of hundred of tons of E-waste there is not a single discarded iPhone? I am prepared to bet my house on it, are you?

> Recycling for electronics rate is like 30%. Do you imagine it's 100% for iPhones because Apple is such a special snowflake?

No.

The rate is vastly higher than the 30% for other electronics, not because Apple is a snowflake, but because they have a recycling program.

1. Apple themselves recycle the phones, unlike most electronics manufacturers. You can just drop off your old devices when you buy a new one.

2. Apple gives credit, even for devices that are at the end of their life and going to be recycled.

It turns out that if you invest in making something very easy, and worth people’s while, they will do it.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#184
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most TVs run Linux so asking them for GPLed code should work, failing that, it is a GPL violation that should be reported to Software Freedom Conservancy, who can help bring the vendor into compliance. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/

You can get the code, but you might not be able to do anything with it, as there is no obligation for the manufacturer to enable you to run the code on the device itself. GPLv3 intends to cover this case, but the Linux kernel is (not without reason) licensed under GPLv2.

This is a misconception, GPLv2 also has the requirement that you receive "the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable". The position of the Software Freedom Conservancy is certainly that the user be given the freedom to replace the Linux kernel.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#185
post #59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most TVs run Linux so asking them for GPLed code should work, failing that, it is a GPL violation that should be reported to Software Freedom Conservancy, who can help bring the vendor into compliance. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/

A lot of them run on ARM chips, or other SOCs, so you'll be stuck trying to get hold of binary blob drivers.

Blob drivers are generally a violation of the GPL license.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#186
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most TVs run Linux so asking them for GPLed code should work, failing that, it is a GPL violation that should be reported to Software Freedom Conservancy, who can help bring the vendor into compliance. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/

My TV runs WebOS. It's all open-source by LG. That still doesn't mean I can run my own code on it without LG specifically allowing me to.

LG's use of the Linux kernel in WebOS means that you have at minimum the right to replace the Linux kernel on your device, otherwise LG are in violation of the GNU GPL and cannot distribute Linux as part of WebOS.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#187
post #142
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off.

> Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. Is there any product you wouldn’t want to apply price controls to, or force people to make? How are you singling out one company? > You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off. This makes no sense. Knocks offs are cheaper because they didn’t invest in R&D, don’t have…

In terms of "right to repair", Apple is a big offender, and the top one people think of - that's the reason I was singling them out.

And no, I don't think we should force a company to sell a product for a particular price, or keep making it - unless they don't allow generic parts to work in their devices. That's my suggestion - Apple can give consumers the "right to repair" (and compete on all those features you mention with their first-party parts) or they can suffer the penalties (which is my suggestion for a company unwilling to allow repairs of their devices).

Think of it in terms of cars - if you bought a Honda car, would it be acceptable for it to not start if you put the "wrong brand" of tires on it?

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#188
post #187
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. Is there any product you wouldn’t want to apply price controls to, or force people to make? How are you singling out one company? > You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off. This makes no sense. Knocks offs are cheaper because they didn’t invest in R&D, don’t have…

In terms of "right to repair", Apple is a big offender, and the top one people think of - that's the reason I was singling them out. And no, I don't think we should force a company to sell a product for a particular price, or keep making it - unless they don't allow generic parts to work in their devices. That's my suggestion - Apple can give consumers the "right to repair" (and compete on all those features you ment…

> In terms of "right to repair", Apple is a big offender

Not really.

> Think of it in terms of cars -

Computers are really not like cars...

> if you bought a Honda car, would it be acceptable for it to not start if you put the "wrong brand" of tires on it?

...If tires were vulnerable to supply chain attacks, then not only would it be acceptable, some customers would demand it.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#189
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get the code, but you might not be able to do anything with it, as there is no obligation for the manufacturer to enable you to run the code on the device itself. GPLv3 intends to cover this case, but the Linux kernel is (not without reason) licensed under GPLv2.

This is a misconception, GPLv2 also has the requirement that you receive "the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable". The position of the Software Freedom Conservancy is certainly that the user be given the freedom to replace the Linux kernel.

Having the “the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable” does not help you any if the device refuses to load a modified kernel. If the GPLv2 were sufficient, then why would the FSF see a need to create version 3?

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#190
If the original problem is "people consume too much short-lived plastic crap", then maybe let's address the root cause, rather than placing a band-aid of DIY fixing things that keep breaking.

For instance, how about having more people buy more expensive / longer-living stuff that does not pile up on landfills in an economy where money is sound, people are encouraged to save it and buy better quality and longer living stuff, thus incentivizing investment in lengthier R&D and supply chains and generally being more thoughtful about the longer-term effects like ecology rather than how to keep up with mortgage and other debt, living from paycheck to paycheck. (Pro tip: Bitcoin.)

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